Lara just turned 49 and has been thinking a lot about how 50 is right around the corner. In this conversation, we dig into people’s perceptions of aging and the fact that Lara doesn’t dye her hair (which is weird because have you seen her hair? Not a grey in sight!)
We also talked about Pamela Anderson and Justine Bateman, and how they are bucking beauty standards for older women. Do you remember how “older” people looked on Archie Bunker and the Golden Girls? In some ways, people look younger at 50 now because of how they dress and wear their hair, but also potentially because we really are aging more slowly now.
Just for fun, we did a bit of research on some of the shows we watched growing up that featured older people. While the Golden Girls were all meant to be in their 50s, most of the actors were in their early 60s (the exception was Rue McClanahan, who was 51). Carroll O’Connor was 46 when he started in his role as Archie Bunker (how?!)
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Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.
Transcripts
(we do not carefully edit these so there may be errors)
[00:00:00] Rowan: have traded. A lot of insecurity in the past for more confidence.
As I've gotten older and I have traded a lot of what I thought were really important things like youthfulness for wisdom. And I wouldn't trade it back at this point.
[00:00:43] Lara: Hi everyone. Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara.
[00:00:46] Rowan: And I'm Rowan.
[00:00:48] Lara: And we are back for another episode. And this week we are talking about something that directly relates to my most recent life event, which was that it was my birthday recently and I turned 49, which means I'm going to be 50 soon.
[00:01:06] Rowan: Ooh, that's a big one.
I'm turning 49 in about a month and a half, so yeah, it's creeping up there.
[00:01:16] Lara: I know. And because we're so similar in age, which I always sort of keep in the back of my mind, like we're very similar in age, so we're coming on all these things at approximately the same time, and I think.
That it's a really good topic to dig into for a number of reasons. So age and ageism, and how do we feel about getting older and how do we just sort of feel about all of it? So I will say that the only birthday that I had where I was like, Ugh, I feel old. And not accomplished enough for this age.
Right? Like I think that that was really at the root of what my problem with turning that age was. It was 25.
[00:02:02] Rowan: Sorry. I apologize to everyone about to turn 25 who might be listening to this. I was like, Rowan, you're rude. Why'd you just laugh?
[00:02:09] Lara: I know. And like certainly the older you get, the more somebody being like, I'm so old, and you're like.
Dude, you're 34. Like, come on. But then I am positive that 80 year olds think I am silly for suggesting I'm old, right? Like, that's okay. But at 25, my parents were married and had been married for several years. And I was born when my mom was 25. And you know, they were doing their masters and their PhD, one of each, and I was like, here I am.
I have no partner. I'm still in school, but like, I wasn't doing a master's or PhD. And I moved out of my parents' house right before I turned 25 essentially, because I was like, I can't be living at home at 25. That is, not okay. So all that to say 25 was the one where I felt a little bit of that angst that I think people talk about with age.
I didn't feel it at 30, I didn't feel it at 40, and I'm not particularly feeling it at 50 in terms of I don't wanna go there or I don't wanna admit it, but I have other feelings about it.
[00:03:20] Rowan: Curious. I'm curious to know what your other feelings about it are.
[00:03:23] Lara: So. I think that for every decade, so 30, 40, and I'm hoping 50, I became more confident.
I had more self-assurance, I felt more comfortable in my skin. there's just a little bit more, I don't care what other people think, like that has come with age and you know, some work, self-work. And so to me. If that's the trend, my fifties should be even better than my forties and like I am, I'm there for it.
That's fine. I have no issues with it. But I do catch myself still in that, you know, the ageism thing where like, we don't want to get old, we don't like, maybe I'm getting older in numbers, but I don't seem old. I don't look old. I'm not old in nature, all of that. I still don't wanna be quote unquote old, even if I'm fine with the number.
And so i'm trying to unpack that, right, because for me, I catch myself in certain things. For example, I don't know if this happens to you, might have happened to you more before or maybe not, but like, I'll be like, it's my birthday and somebody will be like, happy 29th birthday. And I'm like,
[00:04:39] Rowan: oh. I don't understand that
[00:04:40] Lara: because you don't wanna ever be thought of as older than 30, like, God forbid, and I'm like, , no. We can say I'm, I'm 49, that's fine. But the idea that we shouldn't be getting older, especially women, I think, right? That we want to remain young. and looking young and thought of as young. I think that's still there. And the things that I catch myself in is looking older, right? So, I'm like, oh, does my skin look older?
Do I, need to do something about that? Right? Like, I'll catch myself like sort of pulling my skin back and being like, what about Botox? What are the things you could do that might make your skin look younger? And it's a little bit how I feel about, you know, body image, where it's like nice to accept who you are.
Is it okay to want something different? Like, this is where I get all snarly and when I proposed this topic, I was saying maybe this is just part one and there's somebody else who wants to come in and talk to us about this. Because I think there is so much to unpack between. How we feel about getting older, how we feel about looking older, and how we just navigate all that so we're not being ageist, but we're also allowing ourselves
to be who we wanna be, who.
There's a scene in the Barbie movie. I think one of the most profound scenes, and I'm assuming most people have seen Barbie now, but if you haven't, you really should because it talks a lot about societal expectations, talks a lot about the patriarchy. There's a lot of things going on, but I think my favorite moment.
In the movie is early on where Barbie, standard Barbie played by Margo Ro Margo Robbie, what's her name? Margot. Robbie. Robbie? Yeah. Margot Robbie. Wow. See I am old. Um, who's phenomenal. She travels to the real world, and she's sitting on a bench. Next to her is this older woman who's probably, you know, in her late seventies to eighties.
And you know, she has wrinkles and gray hair and she's just sitting there smiling, you know, just at peace, just content. And Barbie looks over at her and locks eyes with her, and Barbie says to her, you are beautiful. And the woman looks back at her and says, I know.
Hmm.
[00:07:01] Rowan: It's such a lovely moment because Barbie is supposed to embody that youthfulness no matter what a Barbie does, no matter who she is.
She's always gorgeous and young and fit. And you know, this has always been the idea of Barbie. And so for. Barbie and an actress rather who, embodies a lot of those things as well, to have that moment where she looks over at somebody who is significantly older and goes, wow.
You're, you're gorgeous. You're, you're just stunning. and seeing the beauty in that, , that is something that we really lack in Western society. I mean, even I, I will say, I'm gonna speak to the, you know, the whole living, life, on, both sides. The gender spectrum, if you will, where I. Lived as a woman for a long time and now I'm living as a man.
There is so much more allowance for me. To age. it is now seen as, I'm now distinguished. I'm not old. I don't have gray hair. I'm a silver fox. I, that's not something I assign to myself. That's something that people have said about me, you know, and, I get compared to people like George Clooney, I don't look anything like George Clooney, but you know, like, that kind of distinguished gentleman because men in Hollywood and in society.
Are allowed to age, but don't worry, because now the beauty industry has clued into that and they are just running with, you know, trying to make men as insecure as they have made women about our looks like they are trying so hard to get us to feel terrible about our skin, terrible about Wrinkles terrible about our hair or lack of hair or whatever it might be, right? Terrible about our bodies and it's all about protein and the gym So it is happening and it has been happening for a while, but I think I'm seeing the results of that more and more. But it is nowhere near still what women are dealing with.
[00:09:09] Lara: Yeah. Women. Are just hammered with everything where it has to do with what you look like and how young you look, and how beautiful you look, and how thin you look their whole lives. And so part of it, again, with body image is what have we been taught is attractive. So this Barbie scene is nobody implanted the idea.
That it would be bad to look the way a senior would look. And therefore she saw it and was like, wow, beautiful. But we have been taught you don't wanna be that.
[00:09:42] Rowan: Right.
[00:09:43] Lara: And so that is, again, it's where I get all snarly about this because there's the part of me that's like, I know that and they're beautiful and there's no reason that we shouldn't be okay with getting older.
But then. Accepting it for myself isn't always easy, so I know that when people sort of ask you, you know, what's something that you really like about yourself or you know, whatever it is. One of the things that I often bring up is the fact that we just mentioned we're about the same age. I don't dye my hair.
[00:10:15] Rowan: Oh wow. I did not know that.
[00:10:17] Lara: Yeah,
[00:10:18] Rowan: because you have no gray in your hair at all.
[00:10:20] Lara: I have no gray.
[00:10:21] Rowan: None.
[00:10:21] Lara: Yeah. So this is not because I dye my hair. This is naturally, I do not dye my hair. I am not going gray. At almost 50 there is an occasional gray hair, but nothing more than that. And so should that be a point of pride or does it not matter?
Of course. It doesn't matter In fact. I am trying very hard to embrace them. So if there is a gray hair, I'm like, oh look, I've got sparkle in my hair. I don't pull it out. None of that. That being said, if I tell somebody to embrace their gray because it's beautiful, they're like, um, I think you should shut up. You don't know what you're talking about. I was like, you know what? Fair point.
[00:11:01] Rowan: that is a good point,
[00:11:02] Lara: right?
[00:11:03] Rowan: I can tell them. so I used to dye my hair all the time before I transitioned and once I got my hair cut short, I was like, you know what?
Gonna let it grow out and see what it looks like. And I love it. I love the color, I love the salt and pepper. I think it looks great and I know that, you know, my face is changing , and that there's a different set of expectations for me now because the world sees me largely as a man, but.
I really wish I could go back and have a conversation with myself 10, 15 years ago and be like, you don't have to dye your hair all the time. You really don't like, you will look really great even if you don't dye your hair. My family goes gray very early on my mother's side. you know, I have, my brothers started having gray in their hair when they were, you know, 28 - 30 years old. My 18-year-old son has a little bit of gray hair. Not a lot, but you can see it poking through a little bit here and there in his hair. Probably a lot like yours, right? Where there's like the odd sort of white hair. Mm-hmm. And, it's just the way that it is and I think some of this old is bad, has to do with some of the unfortunate things that do happen when you're older.
One of them is, you know, inevitably death. So I think, you know, let's just get that outta the way. we all die at some point and a lot of us live, thankfully, a good long life before we do. But also up until that point, there is this sort of gradual breakdown of the body. Ask me how I know my partner who is 50 years old, she said.
Rowan, you're not having a great day today. I'm gonna take you on a little walk. Put some good shoes on. I love to walk. I really do. And so I was like, okay, this is fantastic. I thought a little walk might be, you know, five, seven K was not expecting it would be 14 kilometers.
And did we bring water? No. Did we bring snacks? No. Was I a grumpy little man at the end of it. You bet. I was. And the next day. I was in so much pain. My back hurt, my hips hurt, my feet hurt. And these are things that never used to happen to me when I was younger, and that is just one of the inevitabilities of aging.
So I don't want to be someone who says. Oh, there's nothing to worry about. Aging is great. There are some downsides. Virtually all of them are physical and in some cases, some of them can be cognitive, but we also get something really cool. We get wisdom. You don't just have wisdom. Wisdom is acquired. In my opinion, wisdom is something that you get from lived experience.
Now, I'm not saying every older person is wise. You have to have experienced things, and you have to be self-aware enough to go, what can I learn from this experience? I mean, that's the other part of, attaining wisdom. But I have traded. A lot of insecurity in the past for more confidence.
As I've gotten older and I have traded a lot of what I thought were really important things like youthfulness for wisdom. And I wouldn't trade it back at this point. I really like the life experience that I have. I think it has helped me be more centered. It's helped me be kinder. And the other thing is it has helped me realize I don't know everything.
'cause I think when we're younger, we really, not all of us, I don't wanna generalize, but most people I know will say the same thing. I really thought I knew everything. You know, I thought like I got to an age, I don't know, maybe 30. And I was like, I know everything there is to know, like. I'm a grownup now.
I know everything. No, I didn't. I still don't know everything, but that's the best part is now I'm on the cusp of 50 years old and I know I don't know everything and that makes me a lot wiser and calmer.
[00:15:10] Lara: I have three teenagers right now, and so I am experiencing the, I know what I'm talking about, kind of attitude.
From them and there's equal parts frustration because it's so annoying, especially when I know that they're wrong and like, oh, I remember being like this. I remember being like this.
[00:15:34] Rowan: Yes. And I mean, it is still really good. And that's the other thing I think older people need to remember. We still need to listen to younger people.
Sometimes younger people will know more about a topic than we do, and us assuming that we know everything is a bad move, like just based on age I am So ignorant in some ways that maybe an 18-year-old or a 15-year-old won't be. And it can really help me to get that perspective. So I don't wanna say like they know nothing and I know , and no matter what they say they're wrong.
That's not true. But there is something really freeing. When you finally realize you don't have all the answers, you don't have all this control you thought you had. You don't need to know everything and you can just go, yeah, this is what I'm bringing to the table right here. And I'm open to learning, but I don't know everything.
It's cool
[00:16:29] Lara: and I do wonder if that's kind of new. So I feel like getting older is different than it used to be. There was an event that I went to, I mean, let's say it was seven or eight years ago, and I think I was 43 and I went to this event, and most of the people there were in their early thirties, and so one of the best examples of this too, so it was in a summer camp, but it was after summer camp was over and it was all adults and they had this big lodge and it was breakfast and we came in and there's like this big stone fireplace and there was all these pieces of furniture that were built out of logs. And I said, Ooh, this is very friendly, giant.
And not a single person I was sitting with had any idea what I was talking about. And then I said, oh, I guess you guys are too young. And they were like, well, how old are you? And I was like, 43. They're like, no, no. I thought you were the same age as us. I thought you were 30, whatever. I was like, okay, first of all, there's the part of me that was a little tickled that they thought I was so much younger, right?
Because we've all been trained to not want to look old. I very much felt after thinking about it for a while, I was like, I think it's because I dress in like hoodies and I brought a whole bunch of onesies to this camp, so I was like, you know, prancing around the camp, dressed in like a lemur onesie.
And I was like, here, do you wanna be a unicorn? Do you wanna be a carrot? And so I think. Part of the reason they didn't think I was quote unquote old was because I wasn't acting the way that they think old acts. And certainly when I was little, people in their fifties, you know, all the ladies were starting to cut their hair short.
Maybe they're getting perms there was like almost like a uniform to being older. And I mean, I obviously, I can't go back and ask them how they felt about it. Like they just embraced that that was the time in their life when they were older. Did they just think they had to? I don't know. But I feel like Gen X is doing one thing differently, which is just like I can keep wearing hoodies and I don't have to wear blouses all the time now.
I can still have fun. And maybe. Maybe I'm saying this and it's actually just, I am the one who will still bring the onesie to the party. Not all the 50 year olds. But I do think some of it is about how you present yourself and your attitude and that what people think is young, not actually anything else around the number.
[00:19:01] Rowan: I think there's some truth to that. I know people our age who. Like to be in bed at nine o'clock and get up at 5 30, 6 o'clock so that they can do, you know, yoga and work a nine to five job. And you know, sometimes go to a party once every six months And then I know people our age.
Who do drugs almost every night. 'cause they think it's fun and they go to music festivals and they still date a lot of people , and it's a totally different life. I. I like that there's room for both of those things and everything in between now. So it's not, this is what you're supposed to do, and that's, that, that's all you have.
I mean, if you look at the Golden Girls, I've never fact checked this, but correct me if I'm wrong, anyone who's listening, I believe the Golden Girls were supposed to be in their forties to fifties, and they. To me all seem like they were in their sixties or older. If you just look at the Golden Girls from today's perspective, like how are they dressed?
How are they? Well, you know, , they definitely had a lot of fun and it was a great, I love that show. Such a good show. But they challenged aging. It was a show that certainly challenged aging, but they did still have a certain appearance, all of them that was indicative of the generation they were a part of.
And it was exactly what you were talking about where they all, had their hair cut short and they all dressed in blouses and so, yeah, I do think that there is something to be said about Gen X disrupting that.
[00:20:48] Lara: Yeah, I've seen some of these photoshopped pictures of the Golden Girls and they're like, if we just put modern haircuts on them, they wouldn't look nearly that old.
Like some of it was very much how they dressed, how they did their hair, and I don't think they were quite in their forties or anything. but I think all the actresses were in their early fifties to mid fifties, and a lot younger than most of us thought they were because. partially, I think when they did the Golden Girls, they weren't trying to make them look old.
, That was what was age appropriate, even if you were wanting to act young at the time. And that's it. and then there's the piece where I think it's true that probably because of nutrition and sunscreen and so on. We aren't aging as quickly. Right? Like truly and completely. If you look at people, not just based on their hairstyles and their outfit, but based on their skin and based on their health, maybe they were old, younger than we are gonna be old.
[00:21:49] Rowan: Yeah.
[00:21:49] Lara: If old is sort of. Getting a bit more decrepit fast, just like your skin. And you know, there's so many shows where I've seen that. Like did you know, and I'm not gonna get the age right, but let's say it's Archie Bunker was only like 48. And you're like, what?
[00:22:05] Rowan: Yeah. That's a really good point.
And also I think when we're younger, we tend to look at people who are older and see them as much older than they really are.
[00:22:16] Lara: For sure. I think both are true. I think that I'm gonna put some, photos in the show notes. We'll put the golden girls, . If I can find one of those photoshopped pictures of them with the younger haircuts and Archie Bunker, like I've seen so many of these things, maybe I'll put them in the show notes and people can, chime in on what they think because I think it's a little bit of both.
Right. Certainly, you know, I remember my first day of kindergarten I got lost. And somebody helped me find the kindergarten room and they were probably in grade five, and I thought that they were like a grownup. Do you know what I mean? Like,
[00:22:49] Rowan: it's true.
[00:22:50] Lara: It's all relative, for sure. and you know, I play this game a lot with myself now, where I'm like, how old were my friend's parents when I met them or when I was this age?
And I'm like, I am older. Then these parents were, when I was a kid, and they were so old, Rowan, they were so old.
[00:23:11] Rowan: I remember when, my partner and I back, when we were teenagers, realized we were going to have a baby. We decided, we had a conversation. We're like, okay, we're gonna have this baby.
This baby is now 28 years old, by the way. So, we called our parents and both of our mothers practically passed out, I think from shock, and they could not get over that. They were going to be grandmothers at 40 years old. And I remember getting off the phone after we told the second one and I was like, I don't get it.
What's the big deal? They're so old.
[00:23:49] Lara: I know.
[00:23:49] Rowan: I was 19, so to me that was double over, double my age, so, so I did not get it. Of course, 40 is grandma age, right? I am now. 48 years old, and thankfully none of my children have decided I should be a grandfather yet. So.
[00:24:09] Lara: But they could have. They're certainly old enough as you have demonstrated.
[00:24:13] Rowan: Oh, I know, I know. I mean, I really, I'm ready to be a grandpa now. Like you can go right ahead, but . I remember getting to 40 and I was like, but I'm still so young. Oh, I get it now. I understand why that was so weird for them. I mean, they had more time with their grandkids too.
which is fantastic. But yeah, , that is not old. 40 is not old. It just seems old when you're half that age.
[00:24:37] Lara: For sure.
So, yeah, I think ultimately, some of these topics we've talked about on other episodes, like I have an opinion, like this is what I hope you take away from, and this one I'm more like, I hope somebody can give me.
Some insight, that will help me wrap my head around how to equally embrace aging, but not feel like I need to just accept everything without changing it. Right? Like it's like this, like where do you land? How do you get to choose what's right? Angela? Anderson. No, what's her name?
The Baywatch lady?
[00:25:12] Rowan: Pamela.
[00:25:12] Lara: Pamela Anderson,
[00:25:14] Rowan: the Baywatch lady...
Tell people you're Gen X without telling them you're Gen X. Go.
[00:25:23] Lara: I don't know if you've seen her recently, but she has stopped wearing makeup.
Yeah,
she looks older without makeup on.
[00:25:31] Rowan: Yeah. If people don't know Pam Anderson from before, she was like the blonde bombshell of the nineties. Just imagined like a real life Barbie basically.
And that was Pamela Anderson. she has now decided, you know, I'm, I'm done with that. I feel like it doesn't represent who I really am. I don't wanna put words in her mouth, but that seems to be the interpretation I'm getting from some of the things that she's said. She just really wants to embrace getting older and loving herself for who she is.
And I think she looks fantastic. She really does. She looks great and she looks older. Yes. And that's okay.
[00:26:12] Lara: And does she look older or does she just look like somebody who's not wearing makeup, and We're so used to people wearing makeup? because you know what makeup does? I don't know if you know this.
It changes how we look
[00:26:26] Rowan: Really..
[00:26:26] Lara: Yeah. and I very rarely wear makeup. And so, you know, I like it when I do occasionally wear it because then I'm like, look at the transformation. Like, but that as a result, I think. ' cause I don't wear makeup on a regular basis. I probably do look older or I don't know, do I look older?
Do I, I just look different than I would if I did wear makeup. And so, we are used to people in the public eye being very much made up. And so it's a little bit like, oh wow. You know, another one who has done that is, Justine Bateman. Do you remember Justine Bateman? Family ties?
[00:27:04] Rowan: Yeah, wasn't she Alex P Keaton's sister
[00:27:07] Lara: Mallory.
[00:27:08] Rowan: Mallory, that's right. Yeah.
[00:27:10] Lara: Yeah. And so she also doesn't wear makeup She's just like, no, I'm embracing aging. And again, part of it isn't that there's anything wrong with how they look, it's just that we're not used to it because everybody's like makeup, makeup.
Dye your hair, capitalism, capitalism,
[00:27:27] Rowan: facelift, facelift, facelift, and I'm not anti any of this. I think everyone needs to do what they. Feel is right for them. If it makes you feel better and more confident and you're walking, a little bit taller, that's wonderful. Do whatever it is that you need to do as a trans person.
I am not going to tell somebody don't do physical things like physical alterations because you don't need to, because obviously I'm doing them. But I will say that. It is okay if that isn't something you want to do, not to do it I think where we're at is there's this shock and awe around it where people go, what?
She's not wearing makeup. And it is like, yeah, she's not wearing makeup. Yes, she's on the red carpet and she's not wearing makeup. Imagine. Imagine just being. Comfortable with who you are and what stage you're at in life and just going with it. I think that's amazing and we need to see more of it.
[00:28:29] Lara: Yeah, and if you really like the makeup or if you like to wear a carrot onesie when you're almost 50, like that's okay too.
[00:28:37] Rowan: And if you can't walk 14 kilometers without wanting to fall down and throw a tantrum like a toddler, because your back hurts, that's okay too. Sorry I had to throw that in there because I, honestly, honestly, , I woke up today. I'm finally not sore. Like I was like, oh, wow. I can use my back again.
[00:28:56] Lara: Yes.
And you know, , I feel like I'm gonna say this like 50 times in this episode. I just turned 49. I'm almost 50. But I decided many years ago that because I've had a lot of health issues most of my life, I was like, I'm solving this, I'm solving that. You know, all kinds of things happened.
I was like, by the time I'm 50, I'm gonna be in the best physical health of my life, and that is now. 51 weeks away, and I'm nowhere near the physical shape of my life. And so, I decided to take on this project this year where it's 50 in 50. I'm gonna do 50 things once a week. I'm going to talk about it.
And sometimes it's just a recipe, but sometimes it's like trying some new exercise because I do think it's possible by the time I turn 50, in 51 weeks that I could feel better than I do now. Like I don't have to be. That's it. I give up. I'm old. I'm gonna go sit in my recliner for the rest of my life. And so it's just like the balance between it's okay to get old, what do I wanna do so I don't feel old?
How do I take care of myself? What makes me feel good? There's so many pieces to it. And, I think that, because apparently, as much as I'm obsessed with turning 50 and trying to not be obsessed with turning 50, or trying to not be obsessed with. Getting old. This will likely come up again in the next year as we both get closer to that 50 milestone.
And I think it'll be an interesting journey I mean, I don't know if it's gonna be interesting for everybody else listening, but it's gonna be interesting for me to keep talking about,
[00:30:29] Rowan: I think you are setting a good example of embracing where you're at in life and still wanting to grow and make changes and better your life too.
'cause there's an acceptance, but there's something we can't change. We cannot change time moving forward. None of us have that power. So we are all going to, if we're fortunate. We're all going to age and live a nice long life, right? Mm-hmm. Some of us don't get to do that, and so one of my best friends, my very best friend from the time I was three years old, passed away a couple years ago from cancer and it broke my heart.
And I think about her all the time. And whenever I am, you know, lamenting how old I'm getting, I think of Emmy. And I think about how I bet, you know, her family really wishes that she were still here to get older because I certainly still wish she were here to get older. Yeah. And so I'm trying to. Take that with me, you know, and so yes, I am getting older.
There's nothing I can do about that. And also I can continue to grow as a person. I can continue to nourish myself well to, exercise, to meditate, to do all the things that I do to live my best older life.
[00:31:48] Lara: Yeah, I think we can do all of those things. I, Know that this week's substack is gonna have a lot of images.
I've made a list of all the images I plan to stick in there. So if anybody wants to come and check it out, unboxing it.substack.com, come check it out. Come sign up and add your name to the list so that you get updated for all our episodes. It's interesting. This aging thing is interesting. There's so much more to talk about, but thank you for starting the conversation and digging into it with me today, Rowan.
[00:32:20] Rowan: It has been a pleasure my getting older and still wonderful friend.
[00:32:26] Lara: Thank you.
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