Sometimes life gives us opportunities to challenge our fears, and sometimes we (well, Lara), seek out those opportunities on purpose. Did you know she performed standup comedy and joined an improv group just so she could challenge her fear of embarrassment? As we find out in this week’s episode of Unboxing It, the woman is full of surprises—and lessons.
Here’s the thing: If we always play it safe, we won’t grow. And as Lara and Rowan both know, growth will find you in the most challenging moments.
In this episode, we talk about when and how to stare down our fears, what we can learn from doing so, and why we think everyone should do more of it.
In a world that often encourages us to keep our head down play by the rules, it can be good to throw out the rulebook, take a deep breath, and look up at the crowd full of people waiting for you to make them laugh.
(Just writing that last bit made me anxious, and I speak for a living. - Rowan)
Want to hear Lara’s standup set? It’s on Youtube (and only about 4 minutes long)
Past podcasts that relate to what we talked about today:
Want more of Lara and Rowan?
Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.
Transcript
(please note, we do not edit the transcript for accuracy, so this is entirely what a robot thinks we said)
[00:00:00] Lara: I can move towards that thing that is important to me, even though I'm scared. It's okay if I'm scared. I don't need to just tell myself to stop being scared. Like, be scared.
Do it scared, right? That is part of it. Like do it scared.
[00:00:39] Rowan: Hey there. Welcome to this week's episode of Unboxing It. I'm Rowan.
[00:00:45] Lara: And I'm Lara.
[00:00:46] Rowan: And what's really cool is I don't know, you are maybe are watching this on a video. You might be listening to this just in your ears, but we are in the same room together right now,
[00:00:55] Lara: which is not something that has happened very much ever, but definitely not recently.
[00:01:02] Rowan: Yeah, it's true. It's been, we, we were thinking close to two years since we've been in a space together and the last time Lara came to one of my book signings in Ottawa and like that. Other than that, I can't remember the last time we were in the same place together.
[00:01:15] Lara: Your previous book signing.
[00:01:16] Rowan: Oh, well here we are.
Here we are. We are in my office. In Toronto, we are sharing a microphone because for the life of me, I could not figure out how to set up two today. It just felt too complicated. So we're gonna try and not talk over each other so that we get a decent audio and we can send this out to you. Today we are doing, a podcast on, or I should say today we are unboxing doing the things that scare you.
[00:01:48] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:48] Rowan: Yeah.
[00:01:49] Lara: I think it's so important to get uncomfortable sometimes to do things that scare you because that's how you kind of grow into the next step of you and the more you just stay doing the things you always do. I mean, it's just kind of stagnant. I mean, I think some people probably are fine there, but if you're like, I just wish something in my life was.
Something else. The ways to start figuring what that is and to start finding new ways of being is to be a little bit uncomfortable.
[00:02:24] Rowan: I try to meditate every day and I have a mantra that I repeat to myself when I start the meditation, and lately it has been. Do the things that scare you.
[00:02:35] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:36] Rowan: Do the things that scare you over and over and over.
And I see this as a really anxious guy. Like I, I have an anxiety disorder. I honestly, like I was just telling you that I have broken out in, a rash from what is probably a lot of stress right now, doing the things that scare me. But I also know, like you said, that if I do not push the boundaries of what I'm comfortable with and get into the next phase, into the next zone, if you will, I will not ever grow as a human being.
I will also not be able to achieve the things that I wanna achieve right now.
[00:03:15] Lara: So I'm curious, what was it that made you decide that that should be the mantra? Like what made you think I need to remind myself? To do the things that scare me.
[00:03:26] Rowan: I think that I have often looked at life through a lens of fairness and that honestly is an entire podcast.
[00:03:36] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:37] Rowan: Topic in and of itself. That whole idea of, you know, oh, life's not fair. It's not fair. That wasn't fair. And whenever I. Get scared. you know, we've talked about things like change before. We've talked about, you know, a lot of different things and whenever I get into that phase of like, you know, oh, life threw me a curve ball, or, oh, if I want to achieve this, I have to move to the next step.
I can sometimes start to play the, it's not fair and this shouldn't be happening, and why me and this sort of victim mentality can take over if I'm not careful.
[00:04:11] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:11] Rowan: And so I started to switch my mindset and think to myself, no, this is actually a really good thing. I have the opportunity to take on fear.
That is a way for me to take control of my life when life feels largely uncontrollable. So if I challenge myself, if I say no, I'm going to do this thing that is scary. Look at me. I get to do this scary thing. As opposed to, oh no, why is this happening that's huge for me.
[00:04:42] Lara: And you said something that's really important.
Which is the, I get to, so I don't think you should go do scary things that you don't want to do, right? Like I don't want to bungee jump. It scares me and I don't want to, so like that is not a thing that I'm gonna push myself to do.
[00:05:01] Rowan: I guess if bungee jumping had something at the end that, you know, like, I can only eat at this amazing steakhouse I've wanted to eat at my entire life, if I bungee jump first.
That might be a reason to do it. I don't know.
[00:05:15] Lara: Maybe
[00:05:16] Rowan: I like steak. I like steak, so I mean, I was just trying to think of something that might get me to even that though, I don't, I don't like steak enough. No, you're right. Like I have no desire to jump out of a plane. Right. That has never been a thing for me.
But I have had a desire to, open a coffee shop, so that is something that I'm doing, even though it is absolutely terrifying. It's daunting, but I'm doing the thing that scares me.
[00:05:39] Lara: And so that's why I think it's so important to get to the point where you know what it is that you want, and even if it scares you, that's when you start thinking about it, right?
So we're not just looking for scary things. We're thinking about what it is that we want and how we get there. And I know from living a life where I've done this a lot that can really change how you are, how I used to be was terrified of public speaking. I was terrified of a lot of things that I am not scared of now, but that's shown me the way that I got not scared of it was by doing it.
And so I know from a lot of experience that. Pushing into things that scare you can mean that over time you get to a different place where it's not scary, where you just, then you need a new thing that scares you to keep growing.
[00:06:34] Rowan: Okay. But, and I think this is an important thing, let's talk about, say the end goal is, I want to get good at public speaking.
I wanna be comfortable in front of an audience.
[00:06:44] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:44] Rowan: But the idea of I'm gonna go out into a crowd of 2000 people and speak. That might be just way too overwhelming for someone. Right? So there has to be maybe, an in-between, maybe some steps that people can take.
[00:06:57] Lara: Yeah. So there's something that most of us, as coaches have learned to talk about, which is that we all have a comfort zone, right?
That's where we sit, which is cozy. It's nice. It's safe. And most of us are scared to leave the comfort zone. There is also something called the panic zone. I have also experienced a lot of that. That's when you like jump into something all the way and it's terrifying and you just wanna shut down and it's like nothing about it is great, but there is something in between called the Growth Zone.
Some people call it different things, but I call it the growth zone. And it is that place where. It's uncomfortable, but you're not in panic, and that means that you can handle it. You can do the thing. So you don't want to start by getting on a stage in front of 2000 people when you've never done it, but maybe you wanna join Toastmasters.
Maybe you want to go to a local event where you're all sitting at a table and you just share something, right? Like that is public speaking. There are certainly. 30 years ago, me would not have wanted to do any kind of show and tell at a table of people, let alone stand up on a stage. And so when you say like, I'm going to practice.
I'm going to take this small step. It's going to be a bit uncomfortable, but I'm not gonna freak out, and then I'm gonna see how I feel. So that's how I think you get there, right? You don't need to start with the big thing. Start by allowing yourself to figure out. How to get more comfortable with different things.
[00:08:32] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, , we were talking about this before we started recording. I was like, I think you need to introduce the growth zone, all those different zones, because I don't know what to call them. I think I'm gonna call it like the uncomfortable zone or something.
[00:08:45] Lara: Yeah. The uncomfortable zone comes before the lying on the floor crying zone.
[00:08:50] Rowan: Yeah, I've done that. I've been in that zone a lot actually. that's a common zone for me. Don't be like me. I've gotten better. I've gotten better, but, I like to tell the story about how I stood on stage in Vancouver in front of 18,000 people.
young people, which to me is so intimidating. I think it just brings back all those horrific high school moments for me. But I was in front of 18,000 young people and I was scared, but I was not nearly as nervous as you might think I would be. And I think that's because as we're talking about growth zones, I always knew that I wanted to be able to speak in front of large crowds, but I also knew that I didn't have the confidence for it.
So my first real foray into speaking in front of people was, peers and, and Lara, you might remember Blog out loud.
[00:09:43] Lara: Blog out Loud is where I first met Rowan.
[00:09:48] Rowan: Yeah.
[00:09:48] Lara: First heard of Rowan. and the blog post you read out loud stuck with me Always. But you did a great job.
[00:09:57] Rowan: Was it the one where I'm in the grocery store shopping, or was it the rotisserie chicken Costco one?
[00:10:03] Lara: No, it was in the grocery store and it was about bear paws.
[00:10:06] Rowan: Oh, yeah. The bear paws and the judgy mom. That's right, that's right. Yeah. But that was my first, I remember I was approached to speak at this event. And I was nervous, but I thought to myself, I'm like, Hey, these are just other bloggers. There's just gonna be a room full of people who write things and we're all gonna sort of one by one get up and share our, stories, our blog posts.
That really resonated with other people or resonated with us. And I met so many people that night. So it pushed me out of my comfort zone, but did not launch me into, you're going to go to an arena. And talk to a bunch of prepubescent children, who are gonna be like, what is this old person doing on the stage?
So I think like , that was a really nice workup for me. But that's, even as a trans person, I will say, even transition that's something that can be very needed, but also very scary. and being able to do it in steps and test the waters and see where you're at. Like pushing myself outta my comfort zone.
I was like, oh, okay. I'm gonna get a haircut. alright, that feels really good. Okay, now I'm going to change my, you know, my clothing. That, that feels really good too. Okay. You know, but contrary to popular belief, I'm not going to my doctor in the next week. I'm getting surgeries.
Like, I mean, this takes years, right? It takes a really long time to get there. I'm not like leaving with a hormone prescription on day one. There's a lot that goes into these things. But those steps, are definitely, have always been outside of my comfort zone. Then feel like the most wonderful thing and help me figure myself out more.
And then I get to the next phase and I get to the next phase and at some point I'm like, okay, I've grown all I need to grow in this area. I'm kind of getting close to there now, but it has been a good three, four years in the making.
[00:12:01] Lara: I mean, and this makes me think whether it's something as big as transitioning or wanting to.
Facilitate a meeting at your work and you've never done it before, right? Like, it can be all the things, but what I think the risk is, is that you think you need to go all in right away because that's the only way to prove that you're serious, that you actually want it, that, you're capable of it. Like all of these things that you decide, it means you have to go all the way in right away.
And that is the fastest way to the panic zone. and you don't need to push yourself that hard, that fast to do things like we need to give ourselves some grace and allow ourselves to ease into things so that they do feel good. 'cause we're not inviting people to go be miserable. We're saying, Hey, you really wanna think, let's figure out how to make it work for.
[00:12:58] Rowan: Can we also just touch on perfectionism? Mm-hmm. In all of this, right? I think that that speaks to what you were saying too, that idea that, you know. If I'm going to do this thing that I want to do, it has to be perfect, which immediately can stop us as we've talked about before, from doing the thing, from even starting to do the thing, but taking these little baby steps and moving forward slowly and building those skills is what's needed.
Like. Even as author, I did not one day just wake up and write a bestselling book. Like that's not, how it worked. There was a lot that went into crafting my voice over time. There was, you know, it wasn't just like. All of a sudden I go from not writing to, I'm going to write these, 90,000, a hundred thousand words.
It, was, you know, oh, I'm going to start by writing, you know, little short stories at home. I'm going to, oh, maybe I'm going to pitch my local, whatever, website, whatever, like journalistic, venture. About publishing a piece, right? Like, I'm gonna, and I just sort of worked my way up slowly, slowly, slowly.
And if I look at my writing from, you know, 5, 10, 15 years ago, it's not where it's at today. It couldn't have been because I needed to grow more. But I wouldn't have grown ever if I had said, oh no, no, I can't write. I wanna write a book, but I'll never be able to write a book.
[00:14:27] Lara: Yeah, it definitely comes to the perfectionism piece.
It's the. If I'm not perfect, what's the point in doing it? But it makes me think of, so I've had a podcast before. I ran for like five years prior to 2020. And when I first started that podcast, I had a script that I read. And do you know what it sounded like? It sounded like I was reading a script.
[00:14:52] Rowan: Yep.
[00:14:53] Lara: That's what it sounded like. And people liked it. But they liked it more when I got more comfortable and just sort of talked. And so it's not to say that it wasn't good before then. That's something I talk about a lot, coaching clients all kinds of times, right? Just because something isn't the best it can ever be, doesn't mean that it's not good over here.
So when you start and you say, look, I wanna start a podcast, maybe you wanna start a podcast, go ahead and script it. Go ahead and read it. You did it. Like that's your first step. Put it out and maybe you don't, you know, make it a permanent podcast. Maybe you record a video and you post it online. I don't know what you're gonna do.
Right. But it's okay to start there and then get better. Like we're meant to get better at things.
[00:15:38] Rowan: Yeah. I know the old adage practice makes perfect. It does not, there's no such thing as perfect, but it does. Practice makes better.
[00:15:46] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:47] Rowan: Practice makes better for virtually everybody. No question.
[00:15:50] Lara: But you don't have to practice by yourself in your basement until you think you're good enough.
Like you can come out into the world and share your gifts and your things before it's
perfect,
quote unquote.
[00:16:04] Rowan: Yeah. also you don't have to do scary things alone. Like, I think that's the other idea, right? It's like, oh, if I wanna do this, okay, I have to do this all by myself. No, no, no. That's why there are things like writing circles and, you know, groups where people want to learn to publicly speak.
you touched on one of them, right? Like Toastmasters, that sort of thing. you know, you did improv.
[00:16:27] Lara: I did do improv. I did improv because. I am really scared of being embarrassed. Like embarrassment is like the, I get that secondhand embarrassment, like watching tv. Like, I will leave the room if I think somebody's about to do something that I think is embarrassing.
And I walk out the room and somebody's like, oh, do you want me to pause? I was like, absolutely not. I would like to not watch this part because I cannot handle it being embarrassed. It's just, it just freaks me out. So. Improv requires people to do a lot of things that I knew I would feel embarrassed doing, right?
Like being in character and making funny noises and whatever it is. However, improv also has a philosophy called Yes and do you know? Yes. And
[00:17:15] Rowan: I think you should explain it anyway.
[00:17:16] Lara: I will. Yes. And is basically, you always accept what the other person said. And then you can build on it. Right? So if I said, so you have a donkey, right?
And you'd be like, no.
[00:17:31] Rowan: Oops. That'd be terrible improv.
[00:17:33] Lara: That's right. So you'd be like, oh yes, of course I do. And then what are you gonna do with it? But like, and we're thinking about getting rid of him 'cause it doesn't really work in the city. Like whatever it is you wanna do, but you always start with Yes.
So. That philosophy, I think is a really good one. And notice myself in every situation in my life with my spouse, with my kids. If they say something, I'd be like, yes. And also I wonder if you should consider, I am not negating what you're saying, but that philosophy, the yes and philosophy of improv.
Made me believe that the people who I would be with, even if I was embarrassed, would not be judging me and they would be supportive. So I thought improv was a really good space for me to practice being embarrassed.
[00:18:25] Rowan: That is amazing. And look, when I talk to people and they find out I'm trans or you know, a lot of times they're like, oh, that's so great.
You're so brave. You're so brave. I'm like, no, I'm not brave. People who do improv, brave, and like on top of that you also did standup comedy and like as a professional public speaker who has done more speaking than he can count. The idea of going up and doing standup absolutely terrifies me. So you are a legend.
[00:19:00] Lara: Well, thank you. but it was, again, it was a very intentional, like, I know that this is gonna make me uncomfortable, but I wanted to stretch into it. I want it to be like, let's, do it. The other thing that I wanna talk about is that. I know that when I get uncomfortable, I get kind of grouchy and potentially unpleasant.
And I think it's important to know that because I now consider that part of the process. So imagine I'm about to go on stage for, my standup comedy set and we're all in the green room, and I basically said to everybody like. I don't think you should talk to me right now. Like after we're done, I will be great.
But until then, it's just better to not talk to me because I am exceptionally angry at past Lara right now for signing me up for this course. I am not in a happy place however, I really wanted to do it. So getting through that, knowing it was part of my. It's just always happens, right? Like right at the hardest part.
I get really unhappy about it, but because I've wanted to do it, I'm really pleased with myself when I'm done, I think, and I've gotten a lot of good feedback about my standup that it went quite well. It's about five minutes. and then everybody's like, oh, are you gonna do more of this? And I was like, absolutely not.
Check mark. I've done it. I'm finished. I wouldn't wanna be a standup comic. Hats off to people who want to, but I was really pleased with the fact that I did it and that it was just another one of those ways where I went into something that was completely different and I was able to show myself that I could do it.
[00:20:43] Rowan: You're so cool.
[00:20:44] Lara: I know.
[00:20:48] Rowan: I mean, all of my stuff is like, oh. A big life thing is occurring. I need to grow and push myself to new heights. very little of it has been, hmm, you know what? I think I just want to try going out in front of an audience and telling jokes and seeing what happens. and then like, okay, I did that.
Now done, like, I'm fascinated. By your ability to purposely take things on? Like I think the only thing I can relate to in my life that's similar to that is exercise. I definitely wanted to get healthier. I wanted to feel better in my body. and I wanna preface that by saying it's not about weight, it's not about anything else.
It really is just. Honestly, my back kept hurting. It kept getting thrown out all the time, and I was tired of, it was like, I'm in my thirties, like, what am I gonna be like in my fifties if I don't take care of this? So I went to physiotherapy and my physiotherapist is like, Hey, you know, one things you can do is you can strengthen your core muscles and you can strengthen your back muscles, and then you're less likely to throw them out.
And I did not start by, I'm going to go, you know, deadlift X number of, I mean that was never it, but the idea of being a larger body person going to, at the time a gym. Now I work out at home 'cause I, I've worked at long enough that I know how to do it here. But like going into a gym, in my mind a gym was full of young fit people who were going to look at me and go.
What is he doing here? Ew. You know, that's really what I thought and that no classes would be designed for me and no equipment would be designed for me. And I, had all these mental blocks to get over, but, you know, I went, I went and I did the tour and I started really small and it was scary every time.
I went in for a little while. And then that stopped being scary. And I was like, cool, now I'm at the gym and I know how to, you know, work the equipment, use the treadmill, lift some weights. Fantastic. And then it was like, okay, but now I wanna take it to the next level. So now what do I wanna do? Well now I'm gonna do a strength training class.
Now I'm doing that. Oh, now I'm gonna work with the trainer. Now I'm doing that. And I have continued to challenge myself every week in the fitness department for over 10 years. And I'm really proud of myself for that. I think, you know where I am now. I used to say, oh, I'm not a cardio guy. I'm not a weights guy.
There's no way I could do this. No, I can't do that. I'm just not very good at exercise and now I am one of the fittest people I know.
[00:23:25] Lara: That's awesome. And I think that that's exactly what we're looking for here is for ask yourself what is something I want, but I'm a little bit. Afraid I can't do, or I feel really intimidated by, right?
It could be like, you wanna learn how to be a better cook? It could be like so many different things and then it could be, well, I don't want to go take a class, because what if everybody thinks, wow, I can't believe this person is that bad at cooking. But it doesn't always need to be taking a class either.
It could be like, I don't want to make a meal and then eat it and feel embarrassed that I didn't like it. Like all of the things that you think that make you feel uncomfortable are valid. So that's the first thing, right? I think we like to talk ourselves out of thinking. We're supposed to feel that, right?
Like, I shouldn't feel embarrassed by that, therefore I should just go do that thing. It's really difficult to deal with if you say, well, I get really embarrassed when this happens, or, I am worried I'm gonna get embarrassed if this happens. Regardless of whether or not you should feel that way, just acknowledge that that's how you feel, and then ask yourself what's one step towards Facing that fear and that's all that doing things that scares you needs to be. And a hundred percent like going to the gym is very intimidating for me. There are a lot of things that are easy for some people and not for others. So it doesn't matter if it's easy for somebody else that you know or even if it used to be easy for you, if something is making you feel uncomfortable, but you really want to get there again.
I don't want a bungee jump, so we are not taking the baby steps towards that goal. But like even doing this podcast is another thing, right? I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do something different. Right. Most of my other work has been in the business coaching sphere, and this is not just business coaching. I think some of it applies to people with businesses, but it's certainly not that.
So I'm venturing into something different.
[00:25:29] Rowan: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:30] Lara: There can be some nerves, right? And it's okay. Like acknowledge that, know that it's gonna be uncomfortable. Know that you might get a little bit grouchy as you're facing some of the fears, but then ask yourself if you want to do it anyway. And don't try to push yourself to the 2000 person crowd right from the start.
[00:25:49] Rowan: Right, exactly. And, also I think. When we go back to the idea of fear, some fear is it comes from just instincts, of course. Like some people have a fear of heights or snakes or spiders or something like that. For sure.
[00:26:02] Lara: Bridges. Bridges. I have a fear of bridges.
[00:26:04] Rowan: Bridges. That's fair too. but some fears come from something that happened to us when we were kids that has shaped our belief around that thing or that experience or that feeling.
For the rest of our lives, and I consider it when I challenge my fears, an act of, in a way, I guess re-parenting, if you will. It's about acknowledging that little scared person inside of me and going, Hey. I know you're really afraid right now. I know that this is a scary thing for you. I'm gonna teach you that it's not actually as scary as you might think.
I'm gonna teach you that we can overcome this fear together because I am older now and wiser and more capable, and I know how to do things in a way that can start to tell a different story. So I really do consider it an act of healing when I challenge my fears.
[00:26:57] Lara: Yeah. I think that's a good reminder and I think again, we're coming back around to like, I feel like some of the examples of what I was sharing, of what I did that scared me were like kind of small, and not, you know, like transitioning is a big, big thing, but a lot of this is about really.
Trusting that you can do the things that you want to do, even if they're scary, even if it takes 20,000 baby steps, but you're like, I can move towards that thing that is important to me, even though I'm scared. It's okay if I'm scared. I don't need to just tell myself to stop being scared. Like, be scared.
Do it scared, right? That is part of it. Like do it scared. I also think, you know, people use the word brave for a lot of things. I have shared quite a lot, in the last five years or so about my journey with endometriosis, my journey with A DHD, and people are always telling me that it's really brave of me to share that.
And I don't think it is because I didn't find it difficult. I was like, I'm just gonna tell people this. For whatever reason it was really easy. I didn't carry any shame around it. I was just like, let me tell you some things. But there are certainly other things like improv and standup comedy that I do think were brave because I was scared when I did it, and I did it.
Scared.
[00:28:24] Rowan: Hmm. Well, yeah, it puts bravery in a different context because really I go back to, I used to read my kids, the Franklin Books, Franklin The Turtle.
[00:28:33] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:34] Rowan: Very, very Canadian if, if, you know, you know. But, beautifully illustrated children's books that just basically tell stories using these, animals that live in the forest but have human experiences.
And Franklin had to have surgery one day and you know, everybody kept telling him he was really brave. And then he's talking to the doctor and he said, I don't feel brave. I feel scared. and she said, well, Franklin, that's exactly what bravery is. It's about being scared and doing it anyway.
[00:29:02] Lara: It really is. Brave is not just being tough, right?
Like brave is doing the things that are scary. And so if you don't think it's scary, I don't think it's brave.
[00:29:12] Rowan: Hmm. I like that. I like that. Wow. It's cool having you in the same room.
[00:29:18] Lara: I know. It's fun.
[00:29:19] Rowan: You could just move into the office and you want to deal with kids or like a spouse or anything.
Like, you could just, I, I have a dog so you can hang out with the dog.
[00:29:27] Lara: I can just use your dog.
[00:29:28] Rowan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I could feed you snacks. I'll just throw some snacks in from time to time.
[00:29:33] Lara: I mean it, it does sound a bit tempting.
[00:29:38] Rowan: Thank you for joining us on this episode of Unboxing It in person.
[00:29:44] Lara: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:44] Rowan: We're
so happy that you joined us,
[00:29:46] Lara: and if you have done things that scared you or there are things that you want to do that scare you, tell us. Come to our Substack comment, engage with us. We want to have these conversations with you.
We wanna hear about it.
[00:29:59] Rowan: We get excited every time we get a substack comment. Every time.
[00:30:02] Lara: Every time.
[00:30:03] Rowan: All right. Cheers, everybody. Have a good one.
[00:30:05] Lara: Thanks.
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