Growing up, we were largely taught there was a “normal” way of thinking, and that anything outside of that was weird and rare. In this week’s episode, we’re pushing back on that outdated narrative.
From the way we see colour to the way we feel when music plays, everyone’s brain has unique qualities - so why does society push us to think and see the world the same way as everyone else?
Lara discusses having aphantasia (the inability to form or use visuals in one’s head) and Rowan has a form of synesthesia (where the stimulation of one sense involuntarily ignites another). And the more we’ve talked to others about the way our brains work, the more we’ve realized everyone has a quirk or two in their own grey matter, whether they’ve been aware of it or not.
It’s a fascinating topic, and we’d love to hear how you think your brain is different from other people’s. Drop us a line and let us know!
(Also: Curious to know if you have aphantasia? This chart will help you figure it out. Rowan is a 1. Lara is a 5.)
Want more of Lara and Rowan?
Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available.
Links:
Lara wrote an article about her Aphantasia for the Aphantasia Network.
Episode 10: Education doesn't always have to look the same
Transcript
(Please note, these are not carefully edited and there may be some errors)
[00:00:00] Lara: When you understand that other people's brains are processing information differently, then you can at least think, oh.
This person is thinking differently, not this person is being obtuse, not this person is trying to be confrontational, not this person is just being silly. Hi everybody. Welcome back to unboxing it. I'm Lara.
[00:00:44] Rowan: And I'm Rowan.
[00:00:46] Lara: And today we are gonna talk about something that I think is fascinating. If you gave me the chance to talk about this, most of the time, I would gladly take it because I think it's so interesting and so fascinating and I just love. The human experience , in talking about it this way.
[00:01:07] Rowan: We're all dying to know what it is.
[00:01:09] Lara: I know, right?
it is really about brains and how they're all different. And I think that we grew up thinking that most of us are the same. Right. That in general, the way we think, the way we see the world, the way we process things, that they are the same for most of us.
[00:01:31] Rowan: Yeah, that there's like a normal
[00:01:34] Lara: and that even that we think we know what that normal is like. Just like, oh, everybody is like this, and number one, it's not true. Brains are different in so many different ways, and when we accept that. And we believe that we can stop feeling like we aren't measuring up to this normal that we believe we're supposed to be.
[00:02:00] Rowan: Yeah. This idea that having a brain that doesn't work like other people's brains in some capacity is somehow a flaw Is unfortunate and. In some cases when brains work differently, that can be a real strength.
[00:02:20] Lara: It can, I totally agree. And I think, you know, this becomes a bigger conversation that we're having more and more in recent years because.
There are more and more people who are being diagnosed with ADHD and autism. Both of those are a spectrum. So now you have people who range all through the spectrum talking about their experiences and not trying. To be okay all the time, but instead saying, Hey, this is actually how I think instead of believing, you have to force yourself into what you think is normal.
And so there's all these conversations happening and I love that because I think it's important.
[00:02:59] Rowan: I think it can be really validating for people to receive a diagnosis, especially in adulthood because a lot of us were. Different in some capacity when we were younger and often being different in that way meant that we struggled to fit in maybe socially or to do well academically in the conventional school system, which we have talked about at length already in another episode, we have.
Made it so that if you are different, if your brain is different, that means that life has to accommodate that difference. And I actually do very strongly believe in accommodations. I do believe that. But the reason why I think, and this is I think a greater discussion, I'd love to hear other people's views on this, but I Am neurodivergent myself. I know a lot of neurodivergent people and neurodivergent simply means that your brain doesn't work in a neurotypical way, if you will. That baseline normal, and I'm using air quotes here, I think the reason why. We have to be accommodated as neurodivergent people as much as we do is because society operates in this way where everybody's brain is supposed to work the same way.
So it just comes back to that messaging and if we accept it that there are these. Differences and that these differences are a part of life, a part of humanity, a part of evolution, perhaps. I mean, I don't know. I'm not a specialist in this, but, that these differences have always existed.
Then they could be treated as just part of society. There may be quieter spaces available for people with sensory overload, people who get, you know, overloaded very easily, and there could be. Brighter spaces for people who need that stimulation. It would just be more part of society instead of, oh, you are different.
Stay home, or, oh, you're different. We have to treat you a certain way and sort of leave you out of society.
[00:05:09] Lara: Yeah. and I know some people feel frustrated that. Some folks, I'm gonna talk about ADHD 'cause that's my personal experience that people will say, oh, ADHD is a superpower.
They're like, no, it's not. It's a disability. And I think, it's a bit of both, right?
[00:05:24] Rowan: Yeah.
[00:05:25] Lara: And it's understanding that I am not suggesting that having ADHD. Is not a big deal. Like there are so many things that I struggle with, but a lot of what folks with ADHD struggle with, not all but a lot, is being able to fit into a world that wasn't designed for ADHD brains, right?
Like when, we go back to like what the school system looks like, sitting in a classroom all day, sitting at a desk all day, like all of these things. Aren't designed for that kind of brain. Now, again, we talked about this in the education episode, like I wish that there was a way to easily help people in each kind
of brain to have their best experience.
, In an ideal world. Teachers would be able to accommodate all the different kinds of brains, but it's really difficult in the system that we have now.
This is an entirely deeper conversation. Like again, talking about brains and the way that they're different is something that I love to do. But I also think that for most people, and this is why I thought this might be an interesting episode, and I'm hoping people find it interesting, is that they don't really have a clear.
Understanding of how brains are different. Like what does that mean? Right? It's just like, you know what I see as blue? I don't think there's any way that people can prove that you don't see purple, right? Like, because if I say the sky is blue and you know, if all of what I see is blue. And there's no other way to describe it other than blue. And then you see it as orange. Like, , we don't know.
[00:07:05] Rowan: No, we don't. And also they've shown that there are people who can see. More diversity in color than others. I mean, we know we have colorblind people.
Yes, but also there are people who can see many more shades of blue than others. apparently I'm one of them. I don't know though, how would I prove that? I don't know. But how would I explain to you what I see and then my partner. Can see even more colors than I can. And funny enough, she went into design, right?
So that kind of speaks to her strengths. But we are all so different and it is really hard to operate on this baseline of everybody should be this way. when the amount of differences it, it goes beyond. Colors. We can see it goes beyond ADHD, it goes beyond autism. You know, I have something called synesthesia.
Mm-hmm. And I just looked it up because I know it's not super common, but it's common enough. It's estimated three to 13% of the population has synesthesia. And what that is, is when you experience something with one sense, you. Experience it with another sense as well. It's just the way your brain is wired.
So for example, I know I have one form of synesthesia and I don't know what the other one is called, but I know I have that too. Both of them are around sound and then visualization. So one of them is ticker tapes synesthesia, when somebody is speaking, including me, I see every single word.
That they speak, when the TV is on and I don't have captions on, 'cause captions will take that away for me. 'cause it's like my brain's like, oh good, I don't have to work. It's already right there. I see everything they speak. If somebody is speaking in a language I don't understand, my brain tries to cobble together words, not English words, but just tries to cobble together the sounds that it is hearing.
when somebody speaks more loudly. The words are bigger and the color of the words may change, more quietly, same thing. And then people tend to have different fonts. sometimes those fonts repeat, but somebody might have a font that looks more rounded and somebody might have a font that looks more severe.
And so all of this plays out in my head. All the time. And then on top of that, I see colors and shapes. When I hear music and I see all of my sounds, so like a horn, a jet. I actually see those and when they're really loud, it is blinding. Like it can actually stop my vision just for a split second.
it is like, I can't see, That's just something that honestly have just always had. I'm assuming I couldn't spell words when I was a baby, but for as long as I remember, I have had this form of synesthesia and I didn't even know that I had it until I was in my forties. And I started to talk to somebody one day and I'm like, you know when people speak and you see all their words?
And they were like, what? And I, right. And I was like, no. Like, you know that thing where you, like, you see, you see everybody's words right in your head when they talk. And they're like, no, I never see people towards, what are you talking about? That is when I started to investigate it and I realized, ah, this is how my brain is wired.
That's really cool. So that's just one of the ways that people can be different.
[00:10:29] Lara: I want to know. Before I keep talking about other things,
do I
have a font and what is it?
[00:10:36] Rowan: You have a really nice sort of retro font and Yeah, and it's like sort of a burnt orange.
[00:10:43] Lara: Hmm.
[00:10:45] Rowan: Yeah, it's round. It's pleasant. It's a very, , soothing.
It's one of my favorite fonts, actually. So That makes sense. You're one of my favorite people.
[00:10:52] Lara: Aw, I like it. Okay. yeah, I was like, we cannot continue until I know what my font looks like,
so thank you. So the reason that this was a particularly fun topic for us is because Rowan has synesthesia and I have aphantasia. And so if you have never heard of aphantasia, it is something that they say, three to 5% of people have it. I am skeptical and we'll talk about that more, but it is the inability to visualize.
And certain forms of aphantasia are also from what I've heard, that some people can bring up sounds in their brains. They can bring up smells, like all of that. So some people just, can't visualize. But like, I cannot visualize pictures. I cannot bring up smells, I cannot bring up sounds.
I remember one of the things that was a clue for me was that. Somewhere I heard something say like, oh, one of the first things that you start to lose is the sound of your loved one's voices. Like in your memory, if you haven't been with them for a long time, like you start to forget what their voices sound like.
And I was like, did we know that in the beginning? Like Is that something that, that I would have to lose? That I could just pull up the sound of their voices in my head. and that was a clue. That was one of my clues.
[00:12:13] Rowan: Wow. So, this begs the question, for example, when you think of me .
Can you see my face,
[00:12:21] Lara: no.
[00:12:21] Rowan: Can't see my face.
You can't hear my voice.
[00:12:24] Lara: No.
[00:12:25] Rowan: So how do you remember me? This is a genuine question. I'm sorry. That's probably really ignorant, but truly, how do you recall me? Because when I think of you, I think of your face, your voice, your laughter, I can think of you, right?
[00:12:36] Lara: I'm so glad you asked this because this is one of the questions I get asked sometimes and I'm like. What happens when you remember somebody like is it like a cacophony of like pictures and sounds in your head? I'm like, I just know who you are. and again, like there's no language that will properly explain.
I just think of you because if you think, and it involves pictures and sounds and laughter and I say, I think, and you're like, but think of what I'm like. Of you? Like, I can't, like how do I explain something that just happens and I, don't understand even how to describe it. Is it like, I'm not like thinking of a list of words, like that's not what I'm thinking.
I just know things.
[00:13:21] Rowan: You sound very wise, sounds very wise. I just know things. Okay.
[00:13:29] Lara: But like, I've had people say that, like, how do you remember things? And I was like, honestly, this is a genuine question. Every time you try to remember something or think of it or like you're doing a test when you're in school, whatever it
is.
Is it visual?
[00:13:44] Rowan: Sometimes. Sometimes it is.
Yeah, a lot of times,so, you know, my partner and I are opening this coffee shop and so I was doing my food safety certification. All my customers will be happy to know that I am food safety certified. But when I was doing my final exam, it was a closed book exam and the question came up and I actually visualized the part of the video or the part of the site that I read or whatever, the textbook that showed me that answer.
That was part of what I did sometimes to remember things. Yeah.
[00:14:23] Lara: Which to me sounds like a photographic memory, which I've heard of all the time and knew some people had this incredible talent.
[00:14:30] Rowan: I don't,
[00:14:31] Lara: right? Like all the ways that we think and process are different. Some people have an internal monologue.
I certainly have an internal monologue, right? Like if I let it, it's just like chatter in my brain. I'm like. Am I talking to myself? Not exactly, but sort of, right? Like there is an internal monologue going on. Some people have no internal monologue. I was like, if you have no internal monologue, how do you think?
Like, do you know what I mean? Like to me it's like, there, there, how can that possibly be? Like when I'm thinking about writing something, when I think about doing a speech, I'm writing it in my head first, which to me is my internal monologue thinking. And then. I've done half the work just thinking it through.
Whereas some people, I think they're just like, they get in front of a page and they start typing and then they find out what they thought after they wrote it down.
[00:15:17] Rowan: Yeah,
no, I definitely have an internal monologue as well, and I'm, well, we both are, but I'm an author and so words are my thing, and when putting words on paper that's my thing.
But I think. In that eternal monologue, eternal it. It is eternal. Sometimes it never stops. It's that internal monologue happens constantly. Okay, but I have to go back to something 'cause I have a real question for you. So. You're very open about this. You're an artist and your art is visual.
You do visual art, which I love you do. and you can talk more about that for sure. I am sure people would be really interested to know, but. How do you do visual art when you can't visualize? Again, I don't want anyone to get angry at me. I'm not asking these questions in a judgmental way. I'm really trying to learn how that would work.
So for me, I'm an abstract painter, so I get in front of the canvas and I, start to envision what it is I want to do, and I start to create it. Now, it always looks different than what I envision, but even if I were. were trying to recall like a plant or something, I would just think of the plant and I would maybe try to draw it or paint it or whatever, unless it's right in front of me if I wanted something really realistic.
But like how do you do that?
[00:16:35] Lara: So first of all, I know several artists who have aphantasia, like it's not uncommon. Just out the gate, I wanna say that. The other thing is, there used to be a part of me that was like. Why can't I just pull things out of my brain and create art with them? Like I should have it all imagined in my brain.
I use a lot of reference images and I have ideas of what I want to create, but I don't see it ahead of time. I just have concepts. And again, I think that. Some of my feelings at the beginning were like I can't be a good artist 'cause I can't just out of nothing create something. However, if you think about any artist over time, like they go out and they see things and like , they'll have people posing, they'll have, you know,, their, Bowl of fruit and they're looking at it, right? Like they don't need to like look at it once, remember, and then recreate it.
[00:17:28] Rowan: Yeah.
[00:17:29] Lara: So for me, like I said, I have a lot of images and a lot of times it's just like experimentation and we're gonna see what happens. Or there are certain things like.
Understanding values, understanding shading, right? Like there are concepts that you learn and then you're like, okay, I believe this needs to look like this. However, I'm gonna go back to what does this look like? Let me look at this photograph. Let me think about how the shading is gonna work. I don't try to remember it.
I use tools to be correctly informed.
[00:17:59] Rowan: That's cool. No, I mean, that makes absolute sense and certainly, a lot of the greatest paintings of our time were plein air paintings. Right. They were people who went out and painted the world that they saw and the people that they saw. So certainly, I don't wanna discount that as art 'cause it's absolutely very much art.
It's more, I think for me, the way that I create. It's very much in my head. And so I was curious if, you just started working on something and. I don't know, not imagined it clearly, because I know not able to bring that up to conjure that image, but yeah, like what, tools were you using to do that?
So that's really neat. , And I like that there are so many artists that have aphantasia.
[00:18:45] Lara: Yeah. and just another thing is a lot of my art, some of it's abstract, most of it isn't, A lot of it is based on photographs. Of places and things that I want to have near me because I like them.
like, I am an avid photo taker, and when I go on a trip, like I post my photos every day on Facebook, people are like, why are you so into that? And this is a pet peeve of mine that people are like, put down the camera and just enjoy the place.
If I don't take pictures when I'm there, I never get to experience it again.
[00:19:17] Rowan: Yeah, exactly. My goodness. That is a really important thing for people to remember. Not everybody, again, thinks the same way we do. And you wanna have those memories. I mean, I like to take photos too, but I do have the ability to recall things, although I have historically had a really bad memory.
And that's the other thing. The other thing about me. And I've realized this is just part of who I am. Maybe it's the way my brain works. Maybe it is shaped by trauma. When I was younger, I have no idea why this is, but I can watch a movie and then forget everything about that movie to the point where my partner swears we've watched that movie before.
And I will swear that we did not, I don't remember it. And then maybe halfway in or a third of the way in, there's one scene or something that comes up and I'm like, oh, this sounds vaguely familiar. Oh yeah, I have seen this before. But like, she on the other hand can tell you everything about virtually every movie she's ever seen and who is in it and who directed it and everything else.
I'm the complete opposite. I always have been, or I think I'd be worried.
[00:20:32] Lara: I have a friend like that. She remembers everybody. She remembers all the plot lines or most of them. you can count on her to remember things. I also don't remember a lot of things. I also, will often be able to tell you I read that book and I liked it, but if you asked me what it was about or who was in it, I don't know.
Like I just, I know I liked it.
[00:20:49] Rowan: Yeah, I'm also terrible with names, so it's like, especially character names, so I can watch an entire series through. I just finished watching Untamed on Netflix, which I loved. It's a good. Series, you know, like a who done it sort of, takes place in Yosemite National Park.
The characters are good, really enjoyed it. actually filmed in British Columbia, of course, but, it is a fantastic thing. Now ask me what the main character's name was. I just finished it two days ago. The first six episodes. Nope. No idea. Ask me who anybody's name was in it. No idea at all.
Couldn't tell you. I can describe what they looked like. I can describe their mannerisms. I can tell you what they did, probably at this stage. I'll forget later, but I can tell you a lot about that. But their names, even though I watched it with subtitles to give my brain a break, so I saw their names over and over and over.
Can't recall them at all.
No
idea.
[00:21:47] Lara: Same, same. I'm watching a show right
now. What is it called? Nine Perfect Strangers, and I
can't tell you. Almost any of their names. I'm still in the middle of it, but it doesn't matter. Like I know approximately who they are.
[00:22:01] Rowan: They're strangers.
You're not gonna know their names
[00:22:03] Lara: exactly.
But to that point, again, talking about different ways that people think, I know some people who have face blindness, which is basically they're not gonna remember your face. So they've met you, they liked you, they had a conversation with you. But if it wasn't like somebody who became like a big part of their life, the next time they meet them, they're not going to recognize that face.
You would think that with Aphantasia, maybe I have that problem. Not at all. Like I couldn't describe that person to you when they're not with me very well, I'll get to that in a minute. But if I meet them again, I've had people where I'm like, oh, I met you once 10 years ago at a party.
You were wearing a red shirt and you told me about your brother, Joe. And they'll be like, that's creepy. Like, I have gotten to the point where I generally will not tell somebody who I only just vaguely met that I remember so much about them because it creeps people out. But like, I have all that knowledge in my head.
I could not have described that person to you when they were not there. But as soon as I see them, the information is in my brain somewhere. It's just stored differently. It's stored in a different way.
[00:23:12] Rowan: That's so cool.
[00:23:14] Lara: The other thing that's sort of related is I remember, you know, when I was younger and you'd be like, oh, I met this guy, he was super cute, and they'd be like, what did he look like?
I was like a guy, I think he was taller than me. He had brown hair.
Like worst person in the world to have to do one of those, like crime, identifying. Picture things.
[00:23:37] Rowan: Oh yeah, you'd be terrible at that.
[00:23:39] Lara: But I mean, and I think this would take 10 years. It wouldn't work. But like I could, as, somebody drew somebody or somebody gave me like a bank of photos, I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. But I can't tell you any details just off the top of my head. Like, I am not positive. I could do that well for my children.
Like I know what they look like in my head. But
not in a, like, , Yeah, I just don't have the words,
like I don't know how to say anything other than like face, like, do you know what I mean?
[00:24:09] Rowan: face?
[00:24:10] Lara: Yeah. They all have faces.
[00:24:13] Rowan: all, my children have faces, mother of the year,
[00:24:20] Lara: but like, how to describe like their nose or their mouth like.
[00:24:25] Rowan: Yeah,
I mean, you know, I think we should just be grateful that we live in a time when photos exist.
[00:24:33] Lara: I am.
[00:24:33] Rowan: And that plentiful amount of photos exist too. Like people are taking 'em of themselves all the time. So there are plenty of pictures. You don't have to worry about that. That's good. That's good.
[00:24:43] Lara: So I'm thinking like I get easily overwhelmed, in loud places.
Like I could never study in like a bar or like, I remember in university people like, oh, we're gonna go to the pub and we're gonna study. I'd be like, how do you even think in a place like that? I like complete quiet when I have to think something through. no music, no background noise.
You know, people are like, oh, try these, you know,
binaural beats,
[00:25:12] Rowan: .
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just got two ads for that this morning. What does that tell you?
[00:25:17] Lara: There you go. And like, I'm glad it works for some people, but like, I need quiet and I wonder if it's like, I do have an internal monologue, but like, I don't have.
All this extra sensory input that I feel like anybody with synesthesia would have where it's like being, and this shows you how I feel, the differences and it's why I am sure you feel the opposite. You're like, how do you remember things? I'm like, how do you think when you're being bombarded with sounds and smells and like.
To me, you're just gonna be battered with it.
[00:25:54] Rowan: Yeah. There are two things. One is I've had to train my brain over time and I think my, no, I think my brain has trained itself. I don't wanna take any credit for that. I think that over time, just exposure to life has made it so that I've had to manage when I used to come to Toronto for business.
I remember thinking to myself as I lived in the suburbs of Ottawa at the time, much, much quieter. I could never live here. I could never live in Toronto. It is so loud. It is so busy. There's sirens all the time. There's people yelling, there's horns. I mean, it's just, you know, construction. It's so loud and my brain won't be able to handle it.
And now that I live here. Very quickly, actually. My brain was like, Nope, you're good. You're okay. Now, I do get overwhelmed by noise. I definitely do, and I get overwhelmed by a lot of people. So if I am, and I really like people, I wanna say that I enjoy going to parties. I enjoy interacting with people.
I enjoy giving talks. I enjoy all of those things, but I need a break after because there are so many noises, so many conversations, so much laughter, so much input, and that is really tiring for my poor brain. So it needs to go away to a quiet spot after and rest. So I do that. I do that, but.
Living in Toronto, I can go for hours now and while I start to notice it wearing me down over time and I'm like, hoo it's getting tiring? My brain's getting kind of tired. I can last so much longer than I used to. So there is something to be said for acknowledging our limits.
And also building a bit of resilience. I think both of those things can happen at the same time, I know who I am. I know some things aren't going to change, and also I know the place that I live in. I know the society that I live in. I know that that's not going to change. And so I adapt a bit and I don't want this to come across as.
Everyone should mask their neurodivergence and suck it up and deal with life. That is not at all what I'm saying. I'm speaking for myself, and I'm saying that in my particular case, my life would be a lot harder if I didn't teach myself some ways of coping with the world too.
[00:28:22] Lara: I think that there's learning how to adapt and that there is also acknowledging that something isn't working, that you don't have to mask, but sometimes you do wanna adapt so that something is easier. But I think the reason that I think these conversations are so important is, number one, to realize somebody else isn't thinking the same way as you are, can mean.
So much less miscommunication, right? Mm-hmm. The amount of times where you're like, why don't you just blah, blah, blah, right? Or I don't understand why this person wouldn't this thing. I don't know why you're getting so overwhelmed. It's just people talking like whatever it is. When you understand that other people's brains are processing information differently, then you can at least think, oh.
This person is thinking differently, not this person is being obtuse, not this person is trying to be confrontational, not this person is just being silly. Like whatever thought you might have about people when they're doing something differently than you, I think it is very common to feel like what is your problem?
And when you think, oh, they're processing this information differently. So I'll give you another example, which was, I don't know if you've ever heard of human design, but it's a bit new agey, let's call it that. it's based on your birthday and your birth time. But one of the things that it said about me, which I was like, oh, that is correct, is when I make decisions, I have a gut yes or no feeling about what I want.
I may have some fears around it. I may question. The feeling, but I know what I ultimately would prefer, even if I have to talk through it. And so that is how I make most decisions. I would get so frustrated when I would talk to somebody, present them all the facts of a situation, and they'd be like, I have to think about it.
I'd be like, like, what are you doing? Just like sitting there asking yourself, do I wanna do this? Do I wanna do this? Like, what are you doing? And when I understood that the processing was different, some people, just needed to sit in their body for a little while. Sometimes they need to feel the emotions of it and run themselves through the emotions of what they think they're gonna feel like and what that means to them.
And they don't have a gut yes or no. When I realized that it stopped being. What are you doing? And being like, totally get it. Why don't we pick a time in a day, in two days to come back to it and see if you have any follow up questions and then we can go from there. But in the beginning it was like what?
Like what is happening?
[00:31:02] Rowan: Yeah. And also if we operate, some people operate on a more logical level. Some people operate on a more emotional level. Some people are pretty balanced in that area. But. I can get frustrated when I'm a pretty emotional guy, but when I'm presenting somebody facts, these are research facts.
These are provable facts. These are things that, you know, and working in trans advocacy is an example of this, right? Where I will provide somebody with counter arguments to the points that they're making, I mean, the points that they're making are not based in reality at all. And the counterpoints that I'm providing are a hundred percent fact checkable.
And here are the sources and here's everything else. And these are not bad people. I'm not trying to say these are, like bigoted people that I'm talking to, but just say somebody has an idea about trans kids or something, for example, and they're saying things that just aren't true.
And I say, okay, so here are the actual facts about that and here's where you can find out more. And here are the studies that prove that. And well, I'm gonna need to think about that for a little bit. I'm still not sure, and I can get very frustrated because. I won't get frustrated in their face, but internally I'll get frustrated because I'm like, this is logic.
I am providing you with actual logical proof to the contrary of what you have believed. And if somebody does that for me and provides me with those things, and I can look at them and go, huh? Oh, okay, you are right. the earth is in fact round, right? And here are the satellite images and you know, I have to remember that some people are driven by different things than I am.
And quite often people do come around, but you do have to give some people time. There are people that take time to process and there are people who are more emotional than they are. Factual, more logical thinkers, and they have to let go of some feelings that came with the beliefs they used to have, or whatever it is to embrace the education that has just been given to them.
[00:33:06] Lara: And just understanding that somebody isn't being contrary, they're not saying it's gonna take me some time to. Be a reasonable person. Like, you know what I mean? Like that's not what they're saying. Like they're just like, , let me process it. It's not how I think. So I have to take a leap of faith and believe that it's simply different for other people.
But if you never even entertained the idea, then how are you gonna know? So let's come back to the aphantasia for a minute, which I said, you know, I think three to 5% they say of people, and I think it's higher because the amount of people. That I have explained what aphantasia is and how I figured out that I have it and they're like fascinating.
And then like by the end of the conversation or by the next week, they're like, I think I have aphantasia. Because if you never considered that other people we re literally visualizing something. When they said like, picture this in your head. You're like, okay, I'm thinking of it. They're like, no, no, no.
Other people see it. Other people see it, and they never considered that that was an option. Then how are they supposed to. Know that something is different, and so that's why I think it's so important to have this sense. I'm gonna drop into the chat a link to a page that has, wait. Actually, don't click on it yet.
First I would like to ask you to picture in your head an apple.
[00:34:34] Rowan: Got it?
[00:34:35] Lara: Okay. Now click on the link that I sent you and you'll see if you scroll down a little bit. That there's like a one through five option of what did you see?
[00:34:46] Rowan: Oh, I saw one for sure. I saw one.
[00:34:48] Lara: I'll put a link to this in the, show notes, but it's like a, like, almost like a photograph.
I would even say, some of my family members have said like, that is not, even enough. Like they see it's almost like a video, right? Like, it's like a movable object that like Yeah.
[00:35:03] Rowan: Yeah, so if you look at this, it says self-check. What can you visualize? So image one is what I picture when I see an apple.
It's very similar to what you would see if an apple was, sitting in front of you on the counter. And image two is. Just sort of the contours of the apple. It's really just, like the colors and shape of the apple. So the red apple, the brown stem, and a green leaf. And image three is like the outline of an apple.
It's filled in, but the entire thing is red, but there's no distinction between the stem and the leaf. In terms of color, it's all red. And then four is just simply an outline of an apple, and then five. Which is labeled aphantasia has nothing. So you cannot picture an apple at all?
[00:35:52] Lara: No.
[00:35:53] Rowan: Wow.
[00:35:53] Lara: And I know what what an apple is. I can tell you an apple is kind of like a roundish shape, but like I can describe it to you better than I could describe those people. who I was asked what they looked like because it's less detail. I can, yeah. Like it's red. They have a face.
but I know what an apple looks like. I don't feel like I'm missing anybody by not being able to pull up a picture of it in my head, but like what do you see when you close your eyes and you're thinking of something? I'm like the back of my
eyelids.
[00:36:23] Rowan: Huh? Wow. Does that make sleep easier?
[00:36:26] Lara: Okay, so again, I could talk about this forever.
I do dream there are visuals in my dreams. It's a different part of the brain apparently, that controls that, which means that every once in a while as I'm falling asleep and not quite asleep. I find the images will pop up and I'll be like, is this what it's like for them?
[00:36:49] Rowan: It is . That's probably what it's like for us,
[00:36:52] Lara: probably
But again, the point here is you need to know that something exists for you to wonder if that applies to you.
[00:37:00] Rowan: I think neuroscience is, , we are just unlocking parts of the brain that we have not been able to unlock before.
There's going to be so much more of this coming up. And I think that's why compassion for others is important , and self-compassion is important. you know, , and also perhaps rewriting. Some of this, and I don't wanna put this on everybody, everybody can look at how their brains work the way that they want to look at it. but also rewriting some of the script, perhaps in some cases where it's like, there's something wrong with me because I think like this, there's something wrong with me because my brain works like this. there may be nothing wrong with you. Just because something is different doesn't make it wrong.
So. That societal view of everyone needs to operate this way, or there's a problem that has to change.
[00:37:56] Lara: Yeah. I
think that that's the key thing here, right? Is we have different options, different people come to conclusions in different ways. We are not. Broken. If we don't do things the way somebody told us to, there's nothing wrong if we need to process things differently.
I learn so much better by doing than by just having somebody tell me what I'm going to be doing. Like I just need my hands in there as soon as possible. Other people wanna know all of the instructions before they start because that helps them understand what they're going to be doing. So the big thing here as we gave these examples of how you and I are different is that I hope people.
Start to realize that sometimes when people are doing things differently, it's just genuinely because they are different. Not because again, they're trying to be difficult or. They don't understand the common things, right? Like I think that once we understand that that's true, it does allow for so much more compassion and empathy and not that we need empathy.
Although sometimes when people don't think the way that the normal is, there's more challenges for them. So we can have empathy for that. But just understanding that we're in different places, thinking different things, thinking in different ways, and that most people are thinking differently, not just like the occasional outlier.
Most people are thinking in different ways, processing in different ways. It gives us room to be patient and t o be able to explain a little bit more when somebody doesn't understand something or to ask additional questions when you're not sure why somebody is saying what they're saying, because the assumption is no longer that you would be obviously thinking this thing.
Like it could be so many things and when you know that it just helps
make life less frustrating, in my opinion.
[00:39:49] Rowan: Love it. Good talk. I learned so much about your brain
today.
[00:39:53] Lara: I know. Aren't brains fascinating?
[00:39:55] Rowan: They're cool.
[00:39:56] Lara: If there are more interesting brains and different ways of thinking, come and tell us.
Like we'd love to talk more of. I mean, I don't know about you, Rowan. I would love to talk more about all the different brains. Come and tell us and just remember to understand we are not all the same. And that's not a bad thing.
[00:40:14] Rowan: Thanks for joining us today.
