My, my, my… How are we already on our THIRD episode? If you’ve been listening in so far, thank you! And if you’re just checking us out for the first time, welcome! We’re glad you’re here.
Most of us have expected nothing short of perfect from ourselves at one point or another. And why wouldn’t we? Society has done a banger of a job at making us believe it’s the most important element of success and happiness.
Sure, it might not be fed to us exactly like that, but it’s hidden in other messaging: The parent who asked why you got 90% and not 100% on that math test, the “guru” motivational speaker who says you must follow these exact steps to reach the C-Suite, or the beauty professional who suggests a few injections could make your face look a whole lot better—when you’re just there to buy mascara.
In this episode, we dig into the quest for perfectionism in a world where there is, in fact, no perfect. Humans are so silly. But don’t worry, we share some fun stories along the way.
We also referenced two of our books. If you want to find out more you can do that on our author sites:
Transcript
[00:00:00] Rowan: what I need to remember for myself is I bring my own uniqueness to anything that I do, so it doesn't have to this brand new, perfect, seamless concept.
[00:00:37] Lara: Hi everyone. Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara Wellman. And I am Rowan Jte Knox. And we are back today with another episode to talk about another fun, and sort of mind bending. If you think about it, the topic, perfection,
[00:00:54] Rowan: perfection or perf perfection or see this is, this is. I'm gonna tell this story at some point today because I think it's a good one.
But are we doing perfection? Are we doing perfectionism? And what is the difference between the two? That's a good question, right? Like perfection is getting something perfect and perfectionism to me is like is seeking to get everything perfect.
[00:01:21] Lara: I think it's both. I think it's both because. We are seeking to make things perfect, but I also think there is no perfect.
[00:01:29] Rowan: It's true. There's no perfect except you, of course. But you know, this is how I score podcast points and I need to score podcast points because I'm gonna tell the listeners what happened today. it's actually in its own way. Perfect. so I texted you this morning and I said. Hey. so I did not write down what time we're recording this podcast today.
I forgot to put it in my calendar. And also I did not write down what the topic was that we ended up choosing, 'cause we were going back and forth on a couple of them. so, could you give those answers and you said, we're recording at 11. The topic is, perfectionism. And I was like, well, isn't that just excellent?
I'm like, I'm the opposite. I won, I won the perfectionism game.
[00:02:17] Lara: Well, I think we both did because I was then able to say , I, I said, I. But can we, can we push it? Right. I guess. I don't feel ready. and I think that this sort of, you know, straddles between two of the topics. We're now talking about perfectionism and people pleasing because you're like, oh no, I have not.
Been perfect. I have not figured out how to be ready, even though I don't want to be right now, and I don't wanna let you down and ask you to move things, but I did and it was fine. Right? Here we go. This is like us living our lessons in real time so that we can talk about them with full authenticity.
[00:02:56] Rowan: It's true. And I was like, I could and, and, and believe me, I thought about it as a recovering people pleaser, I thought. About not telling you that I had no idea what we were talking about today, and I, I was like, I have media training. Like I can just go in there and not know what I'm doing and then wing it, you know, which can work out.
Pretty well sometimes and kind of only sort of, well, other times. But regardless if you don't see the shock looked on my face, you're, you're just gonna be like, all right, cool. So he is not as prepared. But he did know what we were talking about today, but I definitely did not. I had no idea.
And it's funny how hard we are on ourselves, right? Like as adults, we have. 50,000 things to think about every week. And I don't even think I'm exaggerating, especially these days. There's so much going on. Everything is moving so quickly and yet we're still focused on this idea of getting it all right all the time.
it has been pervasive in my own life for sure.
[00:03:56] Lara: So let's jump right into the whole topic 'cause this is one I like to talk about often. It's one that has come up. Very regularly for me as a business coach talking to people, helping people move forward in their business because perfectionism. Is the kind of thing that holds us back, right?
So when we are trying to make sure that we are doing things, you know, quote unquote perfectly, we often don't think we've achieved that and therefore we are never ready to start, right? So it's one of those things that it's not like, well, you know, it just means that what I do is really high quality. What it.
More often than not means is that that great idea you had never actually comes out into the world because it was never perfect enough. And so realizing that perfection and the desire to be perfect is not actually helping you, which is what, you know, your like brain is trying to tell you like, I'm just trying to do a good job.
Leave me alone. Like why wouldn't I wanna do the best possible thing? What it's actually doing is just. Having you stand in your own way from actually trying things, doing things, experiencing things,
[00:05:04] Rowan: what do you think is the main driver behind perfectionism? Like what is the core emotion that you think most people are feeling in those moments?
[00:05:15] Lara: I mean, again, everybody's different, but for most people it's the fear that they're not going. To live up to whatever thing it is they're doing, right? That somebody's going to judge them, that they're gonna be told they didn't do a good job, that somebody's gonna think somebody else would've done this better, that somebody's gonna think I knew you weren't very good at.
And it could be anything. It could be how you're speaking. It could be, that you make grammar mistakes. It could be that you feel like you haven't lost enough weight to look good on camera, right? There's so many things, but it's. Almost always a matter of if I don't do it well enough, people won't like it or people will criticize it.
[00:05:56] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. It's,, it's fear. It's just fear. That's, that's what, came to mind for me as well. Like whenever I start getting obsessed with this idea that everything has to be perfect, it's fear of letting myself down, fear of letting others down, fear of. Whatever creative endeavor that I'm taking, not being well received, and I would have to really think hard to come up with a number to go on what you were saying earlier, to come up with a number of projects that I abandoned before I even started them, because I immediately would go to.
Well, this has been done before, right? Like somebody else has already done this before. Or I would immediately think of somebody else who does something similar to what I'm thinking of, and I'm like, well, they do it so well. There's no way I could do it that well. And what is even the point of trying?
And so I think comparison and perfectionism can really play into each other for me.
[00:06:57] Lara: Yeah, and the thing I always wanna remind people is just because something can be even better than it is now doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't good. What you're doing can be good. It can have value, it can be great.
In fact, can it be even better? Maybe. But there's almost always something that can be better and something that can be worse than whatever you're doing. Or something that could be just completely different and it's not in the same, you know, category of things. So just because it can be better doesn't mean you need to wait.
And most of the time, until you start actually doing the thing, you're not going to get better.
[00:07:37] Rowan: Get better. That's the hard part. That's the hard part is I mean, for anything I remember just starting to make. Reels or tiktoks or something. You know, the idea of broaching video of it felt very intimidating because what I was watching, you know, I would see all these very skilled professionals and I had to remember that they became skilled professionals because they started.
Where I was, and when I say skilled professionals, I'm talking about somebody who works in, you know, film and tv. I'm talking about somebody who does this type of, social media. You know, I hate to use the term influencers because I think influencer, you know, it can mean a bunch of different things. But, you know, say influencers, who.
Started with the idea, like, I'm going to do these videos and I'm now watching them, you know, 5, 8, 10 years later, some of them. And yeah, everything they're putting together, it is sleek. It is sexy. it is edited so well, and the lighting's really good and, you know, they don't miss a beat in what they say.
and when you look at that, and you're right at the start. It's like, well, what on earth would I have to offer? And I'm never, I'm not like that. I can't do that. And, their messaging is so on point, and I, I don't know what, I don't know what I'm doing. but what I need to remember for myself is I bring my own uniqueness to anything that I do, so it doesn't have to this brand new, perfect, seamless concept.
I think that's virtually impossible now with billions of people on the planet and most of them, able to share their ideas in some way. Right. I think that we do a disservice to ourselves and honestly others when we don't take that leap outta fear of not being perfect at it.
[00:09:28] Lara: Yeah.
So there's a whole bunch of things I wanna say all at once. This happens to me a lot, but. Number one, when we are authentically ourselves and saying things in our way, we are probably reaching people who needed to hear it in just that way, in just those words, with just those anecdote. Doesn't matter how many other people heard it, it doesn't mean that you can't impact somebody and give them value in the way that you are saying, presenting it and talking about it.
And that goes to my whole, there is no perfect and I always say that, and sometimes I think that people think that means like, so what's the point in trying? But what my point really is, is that we don't all think the same thing is perfect. Some people love a minimalist aesthetic. Some people like myself prefer more maximalist, right?
Some people would like like a five minute soundbite bite, and some people would like a two hour, three hour in depth podcast. Neither option in both those cases is wrong. It's different. But there is somebody who's gonna be like, oh my gosh, why is this so long? And somebody else who's gonna be with the short one be like, like, how am I supposed to get anything from this if you don't go more in depth?
Right? Because there are always people who are gonna want different things. There is never one thing that is going to be perfect for everybody. And what that can give you permission to understand is trying to make something perfect for everybody is not possible. It's simply not possible. And therefore, if you can just let go of the fact that that's a thing you're trying to achieve, something that everybody is gonna think is perfect, then you can just lean into the thing you wanna do.
You can try different things. I'm not saying. Go put out crap like that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying get outta your head and stop thinking. It's not as perfect as it could be. I need to get it just so,
[00:11:33] Rowan: yeah. Now see, I have to think on that a little bit because as somebody who is starting a whole bunch of new projects right now, I feel like I'm just reinventing myself all over the place.
it has taken me a long time to get to the point where I'm even willing to try to do those things, and we do have to get out of our own way to make that happen. And I wanna go back to the idea of people pleasing and how much this impacts our need, our quest for perfectionism, if you will.
yesterday I invited. Friends over for dinner and I, I make bagels. I've been making bagels forever. Oh. And and I enjoy it, you know, if I'm in the right mood. And yesterday I had some time and so I thought, well, I'll make some bagels and we'll have sandwiches. I'm just gonna do something really, really easy for dinner.
Just some sandwiches, like some bagels. And that's that. And then I thought uhoh, like, I think I was halfway through the bagel making process and I thought. But what if, what if some of the people don't like bagels? so rather than just order some stuff at the store or go to the store and get like some bread or No, no, no, no.
Now I also had to make buns because the idea of disappointing anyone, anyone who didn't like bagels. And also like, if I was gonna make bagels, why wouldn't I make buns? So this really simple idea that I had. That would've been just fine with everybody, I'm sure turned into me running around the kitchen on my feet.
My old man back is like sore as can be. and I'm trying to just like get everything perfect. And then I had to course, then I had to take pictures of everything, you know, for the gram. and I, I did that too. And I had to stop at one point and go, Rowan, like, why? You know, the whole point is that people want to come over and hang out with you.
They just wanna come over and spend time with you. Why are you going outta your way to create this perfect meal when you already laid it out that it was going to be this simple, let's just all hang out together. Thing, perfectionism is, it's taught, , we learn a lot of it from , our childhood. A lot of things go back to childhood, but I think we learn a lot.
Of perfectionism, maybe by watching our parents do the same thing. Like I can't tell you how many, holidays, you know, we would have Christmas and. My parents, I mean, bless them. They, they had four children. I was the eldest. And then they had, they had me and then when I was eight, 10, and 12, they had my sister and my two brothers.
And my youngest brother has Down Syndrome and , , he was very high needs as a baby and a child. And yet my parents insisted like, we're going to host Christmas dinner. And it was. Absolutely the most stressful day of the year, like after we opened gifts in the morning, it was just because, I guess, you know, it was this idea of having to have the house perfect and the meal perfect and us all looking perfect.
And I just remember it being this unenjoyable thing because we tried so hard. I think from my young perspective to have it look. Great when people walked in the door, except instead of what it actually was, which was this chaotic disaster train of, of, of a very loving family, doing our best. But like, you know, the house was never that clean and the meals were never that put together.
And, and we were never that put together as people, but this was what we projected at the door once family showed up. And you take that. And I think that's a lot of families, and I think that's a lot of situations that's, that's not abnormal. And you know, like, no disrespect to my parents, , but this is the type of stuff , the setting that we create in our families.
And I have done that to an extent with my own family life. I brought that into my family life and then outwards into everything else that I do. It is so hard to unlearn.
[00:15:46] Lara: Yes. It's an awful lot of pressure. And the other thing that I think that happens is that we don't pick and choose, right? So in reality, each family, each person has different things that they think are really important , that they do well and that they wanna do well, and that like just part of how they're creating a life.
But then we see the other people who are like, you know, wrapping their kids' bedroom doors in the morning for their birthday and like there's like a balloon avalanche when they open their door. Do you know, have you ever seen any of this stuff? Like there's,
[00:16:15] Rowan: yeah, I sure have. All
[00:16:16] Lara: these things people do and you're like, for my kids, for my spouse, for my parents, for my friends.
I need to, always be trying to do the very best to make sure that they know that they're loved, that I've created a good experience for them, that I've created a childhood full of memories. And there's this, so we took our kids on a cruise when they were quite little and my twins were not quite four.
And it's like, you know, I need to
[00:16:44] Rowan: stop you there for a second. I need to stop you there for a second. You took your family on a cruise when you had 3-year-old twins. First I need to know why.
[00:16:54] Lara: It was a really good deal. I'm just imagining the chaos of this. And we drove, we drove to Florida. No, yeah, we did it.
created this beautiful experience, amazing memories. And my daughter, who's about to be 16, but who was almost four at the time, has made it very clear that the only thing she remembers from that trip are one, the hallway outside the elevators. The cruise ship and that we took a yellow taxi cab.
[00:17:25] Rowan: Great money well spent.
[00:17:27] Lara: that's it. That's all she remembers from the trip. That being said, I think she has great memories of the fact that we took a trip, but like. You know, we have so much pressure that we put on ourselves to create all of these incredible memories and how am I gonna make sure that they had a childhood that was worth remembering with all these magical moments?
And like, they're not gonna take what you think they're gonna take from it. They're going to feel, more cherished and loved by the little things than necessarily the big things you don't need to do. Everything, you don't need to see what other people are doing. The whole comparison stuff that comes from social media where you see that people are, you know, making their kids' favorite meal from scratch on their birthday and then some other people are like wrapping up their door and some other people are doing something else, and then now you think you need to do all of it or else you're not perfect, like the pressure we put on ourselves grows and grows and grows to unrealistic proportions.
And then the only, acceptable way that we can see ourselves is as having failed.
[00:18:33] Rowan: It's true. It's true. I,I don't wanna stay on the kid thing too long. 'cause not everybody has children, but my children, I just narrowly avoided the elf on the shelf phenomenon and. I gotta tell you the idea of having days upon days upon days of every single day that elf has to be in a different place doing a different thing.
And you know, it's like that'd be creative every single day at that is pressure that nobody needs. Like, if you're all having fun with it, great. Do it. Outside of that though. Wow. Like I know me, I, not me. Now I've definitely grown a lot as a person. Clearly I took no notes for this episode.
I had no idea what time we, or what we were talking about, but, uh, I may have gone too far into my perfectionism recovery, but I know that me, a few years ago, if Elf on the Shelf would've been a thing. I would've felt compelled to do it. I would've felt like I had to do it because yeah, what if my children didn't grow up with that?
and it's funny, you know, because we do, I think as adults we might put a lot of emphasis on those things like you were saying. And all you have to do is just ask your children, Hey, do you remember what you got for your birthday last year? And most of the time, I mean, they might remember one thing, ask them what they got three years ago.
They have no idea, but they can't, if they can't remember that, then maybe that isn't as important as we might think it is. my kids remember things like one year we had a dance party for one of our kids and we made a playlist and we had a candy bar They don't remember anything else about that party except that their friends came and they had a really good time and that there was music.
You know, I mean, that was, that was pretty much it. and yeah, that did not take a lot of planning. It did not have to be perfect, and it was actually fun to do. So,may we all think of my child's dance party when we're, when we're thinking of, of recovering from perfectionism.
[00:20:46] Lara: Because the magical, beautiful moments are not always the big, bold, complicated ones
[00:20:52] Rowan: Exactly. Exactly. You, you wrote something about perfectionism in your book actually. That was quite good. And, I'm gonna put you on the spot and ask if you would read some of that. 'cause I,, I would really like to hear it again.
[00:21:07] Lara: Alright. so. I said in my book, you're Not lazy. Just as we're taught to fear failure, we're taught to always strive for perfection.
But here's the thing I've learned, there is no perfect. What I truly mean is there is no universal perfect. What is perfect to you is not perfect to someone else. To one person. Big is perfect to another. Small is perfect. We can't always please everyone, but trying to can become exhausting and demoralizing.
When we realize this almighty perfection isn't possible, we can release ourselves from the goal of striving for it. We get to decide what is right for us. We get to let go of the expectations that we could ever do something that would make everyone happy. Trying to live up to all of this perfection is exhausting.
No wonder we freeze up and then call ourselves lazy.
[00:21:55] Rowan: Ugh. Wow. How long did it take you to learn that lesson?
[00:21:58] Lara: A really long time. And, you know, for all that I've written this book , and said things , explained to people that I think, they don't need to strive for perfect.
Writing a book was really, really, really hard because I had to confront all kinds of parts of myself about not being good enough, not writing well enough. Knowing that the first draft was really my messy first draft and that it was gonna need so much editing, like it is, not an easy thing for me.
It certainly hit all kinds of my, like I was in my feelings for a long time when I started getting edits. Right.
[00:22:36] Rowan: I, I have a great story about that too. So I, I had a lot of those same fears. When I started to write, I was actually approached by my publisher, to write my first book, which is a dream come true for most budding authors.
I was very, very fortunate that I had a compelling story to write and that it got wind of this and they wanted it, and then immediately, imposter syndrome kicked in because, ,, I'm not embarrassed to say this whatsoever, but I, I received my high school diploma at 38 years old. I,experienced a lot of instability as a teenager, so I moved around a lot.
there were times when I didn't have a place to live or I lived in a shelter, and, I went to seven different high schools at that time and I just, I just never was able to graduate. So once my kids got older, I decided to go back to school and I did graduate. But that's where my formal education ended.
So, you know, fast forward, uh, couple more years and I am approached by my now publisher, to write my first book. And I am terrified because what on earth would I have to say? That would be of any help to anybody when I am not, you know, , well educated when I am not an academic, when there are people who can talk circles around me because they're, as far as I thought at the time, more intelligent than I was.
I mean, I told myself all kinds of stories and, to end sort of that part of the argument. My, my book became a bestseller and it became a bestseller because I believe, I mean, the story for sure was my family's story, and it definitely, I think people needed to hear it, but also it was a very accessible read because I don't write in a complicated fashion.
I write. Exactly the way I speak. So when, you know, it's cleaned up for sure. But when I'm writing, it's, you know, people have compared it to sitting across the table from me at a coffee shop and I'm just telling you my life story. And that is how some people, a lot of people in fact need to hear stories like mine.
But when I remember, I had never written a book before and obviously, and so I write my first draft and I send it to my editor at the publishing house. And she, I, you know, she was, she's this amazing lady. She's retired now, but she was this amazing person and she, she said, okay, thank you so much, Rowan.
I'm gonna, read this over. I'll get back to you with some edits,shortly. In a little while. I don't know what that means. I, I have no idea how long it takes to edit things. So I'm just going on about my life and I'm waiting and I'm waiting and like weeks go by and then it's like the holidays, I don't hear anything again.
And I'm like, okay, well, at first I'm like, what if it's terrible? What if it's like absolutely terrible? And then I don't know what happened, but like I switched over to this other side for just a fleeting moment. Where I was like, maybe it's just so good. She doesn't have to edit very much. Anyway, so she sends me the edits back and she says, Hey, Rowan. So I, you know, I've had a look and I've made some changes and, some suggestions and, do not be alarmed by the amount of edits. it's just your first draft. It's okay. And I open it up. I kid you not, it was like the manuscript was hemorrhaging blood from all the red ink.
I mean, it was just. Devastating to my ego and I just crawled into this like dark hole for two days and I was like, I'm a terrible writer. I'm never going to be good at anything in my life. I was fooling myself. She actually had an inkling and called me just to remind me that it was fine, but it is hard.
It is really hard when you set a really, really high bar for yourself and are expecting that you're not going to meet it. Then you really don't meet it.
[00:26:39] Lara: It is, and the thing is, we are not meant to get it perfect the first go round, but we think we are. We really think we are. my big example is there is no actor who is getting ready for a movie or a play who reads the script one time. And then gets on stage and they've got it nailed.
[00:27:01] Rowan: Yeah.
[00:27:01] Lara: That's not how it works. It takes practice, it takes tweaking. it's always better if somebody else is involved to give you feedback so that you're not just like staring at it and living with all in your own head. But if you think the goal was to do it perfectly, quote unquote, from the get go, you're immediately setting yourself up.
To feel like crap. If you know it's going to take time. If you know there's always room for improvement, then you can just give yourself a little bit more room to be like, this is how it was supposed to go. Because I really think Right, we go back to childhood. You mentioned so much comes from childhood and it does because that's when we learn the ways of being in the world.
And when we go to school, we are taught that. Getting perfect grades in school is the best thing ever. And failing is the worst thing ever. Like we are taught that you are meant to do things. Exactly 100% right. If we want praise and we are going to, scolded or told we're not good enough, if we fail.
Which makes us afraid of trying things we think we're gonna fail at and makes us really judge ourselves if people don't come back with a hundred percent great job, no notes.
[00:28:20] Rowan: It's true, it's true. I, I, I actually think school,can be a detriment in another way as well. And I am, borrowing this thought from somebody else and I heard it years ago, so I apologize that I cannot remember who said this to me or where I heard it, but.
There is this idea with school aged children that they're supposed to excel at everything, every class that they take. They're supposed to be good in languages and math and science and sport and art, and, and, and, and. And. If they're having a struggle, if they are having a hard time in one of those subjects or two of those subjects, or three of those subjects, that is seen as a failure.
It is seen that they're not working hard enough. Right. And find me an adult who is good at everything. If I'm an adult who is good at languages and math and science and sport and art, and, you know, I mean, you're not going to find that person. And so we immediately set children up to feel like they're not enough right from the get go.
unless they are that rare child who does happen to excel in all those classes for some reason. But most of them. As adults will tell you that they lived under so much pressure, so much anxiety all the time, and you know, it costs them a lot in other ways. So I wish that we could allow more room for exploration.
I wish we could allow more room for failure. I wish we could allow more room for what does not getting it right once or twice or always even. What, what does that teach us? Because we grow in challenging circumstances as human beings. we don't grow when it's easy. We don't. And so this quest for perfectionism, I believe, can be a disservice to us.
I, I said the other day, I get a lot of hate on the internet because I'm very public about being a trans person. that is enough to get that kind of hate in, this age, of, divisiveness, I guess. And one of the things that I get a lot, a lot as a trans man is that people say, you're not a man.
You're just an ugly looking woman. And, I don't believe it for a second. I think that's such a silly thing to say, but I used the term when I was talking about this the other day, I said, I'm not an ugly looking anything. I am joy forged in fire. And I think that that is the lesson that I've learned from realizing who I am, what my shortcomings are.
That I'm not gonna get it right all the time. That there is no perfect that I'm just sort of perfectly uniquely me. And that's okay. And that has brought me a lot of joy and a lot of peace. And at this point in my life, I am, too old and too stubborn to let anyone take that away from me.
But I'm glad I learned it
[00:31:31] Lara: and I think. If we can all remember that, because a lot of what we're taught is perfect, is really just being able to do the thing other people want us to do, right? Be the way that other people want us to be. Here are the rules we've set up that are most convenient for us. Go be that.
And if you don't achieve that, then you've failed. And when you understand that so much of perfection is just being able to regurgitate back to people versus. Really figuring out what you're good at, how you're good at it, and going that way, it can make the world of difference because innovation doesn't come from regurgitating somebody else's stuff.
You have to be willing to try something that might not work in order to find something new. Different, and that's going to help people in a different way, right? Going a different direction has risk, but it also has the potential for a lot of payoff. We need to not be afraid of the fact that some things might not work and we need to not attach our value to perfection because that is just.
so easy to fall down this like, I'm not good enough slope when you're measuring yourself up against the wrong things.
[00:32:48] Rowan: I think I learned a lot of that through transition actually. There was, a reckoning I had to make with myself when I realized that I needed to start testosterone and move into this, this space of, manhood.
And I'm watching,as a newcomer to this space, the various ways that men try to tell other men what the perfect man is. And the perfect man means totally different things to different people. there's the, you know, there's the alpha male bros. And like, you gotta go to the gym. You have to be fit, you know, you have to treat women like possessions.
You have to, you know, you have to be successful and drive a sports car. You know, there's that idea. And then there's this other idea of. You have to be this really educated banker business bro, and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and you don't stay attached to women and I'm watching all of this, you know, and, and, and I'm thinking, I don't want to be, nor am I either of those things.
I am this. interesting. I was gonna say weird, and I don't think weird's the right term. You can call it weird. I don't think that's a bad thing. But like, on this interesting collection of,experiences including having, given birth three times, you know, of having traveled in women's circles for a very long time ,and a whole bunch of other things that make up who I am and.
If the epitome of manhood is any of those things, I'm never gonna meet them. But also, nor would I want to. I'm not interested in that. There is, no ideal man. There's no ideal woman. There's no ideal person of any gender. Actually, the ideal is just learning to be good with who you are and doing what you need to do to feel good in that space.
But you know, the argument that a lot of people make, for example, is, well, you're never going to be a man because you know you weren't born with a penis. And I'm like, that's, that's your thing. That's your thing. that's, that is what actually makes a man. That's fascinating when there are so many other facets to manhood.
so yeah, there is no perfect. And so I had to get really comfortable with the fact that I'm coming into this in a different way and I need to be right with me where I am now and wherever it is I end up. That has served me really well in other areas, including, perhaps maybe forgetting to write down when our next podcast, was, recording and what it was about and preparing for it whatsoever.
But, but I mean, you know it again, I didn't beat myself up over it, you know? I just thought it was kind of funny and I'm like, well, you know, we all make mistakes. That is huge growth. And that comes from experience and learning to let go,
[00:35:50] Lara: and people appreciate when they see other people model that behavior.
Right? When somebody says, I made a mistake, but it's okay. It's a little bit Mind blowing to them. I've had people say, wow, I really appreciate that you just, you know, owned that you made a mistake and moved on because they've been taught that it shouldn't be that simple.
[00:36:13] Rowan: Yeah, it's true. It's true. I mean, I, you know, back in the day I definitely said some things on the internet that, you know, we're not super controversial, but certainly were not things that.
I didn't formulate the thought well enough. And it can be really hard to formulate a thought in a tweet, for example, because you only have so much space to write something. Whether it was misconstrued or construed correctly, but still upset people.
you know, I would reflect on that. And then, you know, I, I was one of the people I think at the time when that was more of my life. I would actually apologize when I made a mistake. I'd say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that that hurt people. I'm sorry that I didn't word it properly. I'm sorry that I didn't have enough information.
And I think, there were people who actually would reply and go like, oh, wow, I really thought you might double down on that. I was like, why? What does that teach me and how does that help anybody else? It's better if I just say, yeah, I messed up. I messed up, and I'm gonna do better going forward.
and what a much better world that would be if we could get our egos outta the way a little more often.
[00:37:22] Lara: It makes us more human. Humans make mistakes. Humans aren't infallible. Humans aren't meant to know everything all of the time. So if we pretend that we are something that we're not like, we're just putting forward something that isn't us.
And I think at the crux of what we want from this podcast and what I hope people take away is that stopping and thinking and asking ourselves. What we want, what we believe, how we wanna do things instead of just moving forward on this sort of conveyor belt of life towards the, you know, goalposts, I'm mixing, metaphors I think, but,
[00:37:59] Rowan: conveyor belt and goalposts.
I like it. I like it. Yeah.
[00:38:02] Lara: I don't know what game that is. Go sports. but like we. Often feel like we are meant to be something specific. And so we're constantly trying to chase that and what I think we both really believe is that when you can stop and ask yourself, what do you want? who am I? What do I believe that that's where we start to let go of so much shame.
It's where we start to get the ability. To say I didn't do that as well as I'd want to, but that doesn't make me a bad person. It doesn't mean that I'm not smart enough. When we are able to shed a lot of that, it gives us so much more time and space for being ourselves. And that is what I think both of us really want for people, is to be able to figure out who they are truly and let themselves be that person.
[00:38:55] Rowan: And yes, and it's not just a self-serving thing If we can learn to give ourselves grace, we can also learn to give others around us grace. Hmm. If I hold myself to impossibly high standards, I'm more likely to hold other people to impossibly high standards and maybe they won't be the same standards.
And I found them when I was particularly judgmental of other people. I was far more judgmental with myself, but the more that I was able to let go of the expectations I had for me. and the more I could accept that I was imperfect and that that was totally fine and normal and okay, the easier it was for me not to hold the other people in my life, and dare I say it, people online because, wow, were we mean to each other online?
Do we ever expect this extremely high? Caliber of perfectionism, right? We really hold people way up. If you do not meet my expectations, I will tear you down in a heartbeat because we're so detached from them. We're not in front of them. We're in front of a keyboard. you know, the, the more I was able to do that, the more I could see things that maybe I didn't agree with.
Maybe weren't worded properly, or maybe somebody in my life messed up and, you know, it hurt me or it upset me in some way. the easier it was for me to just forgive or give grace and move on. So it actually makes everything around us better. when, we can treat ourselves more kindly.
[00:40:28] Lara: A hundred percent agree. A hundred percent. that's perfect. No, that's perfect. Perfect. but I do think it's a good way to sort of wrap up this conversation, right? Just remember that , it's, not just about giving yourself more grace. And it's certainly not just about like, it's okay if you suck at things.
Like that's not what we're saying.
[00:40:51] Rowan: But it is okay if you suck at things too. That's okay. It is
[00:40:53] Lara: okay, but it, it's not about just being like, let all your standards go. None of them are of any importance. It's I mean, it's a lot about being more flexible and not thinking anything has to be one specific way.
[00:41:09] Rowan: I love it. I love it. And I think your imperfect brain is. Imperfectly great.
[00:41:17] Lara: Yours too.
[00:41:19] Rowan: Wonderful.
[00:41:20] Lara: And I would like to invite everybody who's listening, if you have any other topics that you would love to hear, Rowan and I unbox, please come to our substack first of all, you can subscribe so that you get all the updates about our latest episodes.
But also tell us, we wanna hear what you wanna hear us talk about what you think are good topics to unbox. We're all in for talking about all the things. I think
[00:41:45] Rowan: all the things. I have an endless supply of coffee and, an endless amount of text I can send to find out the next time we're recording.
[00:41:52] Lara: Perfect.
Share this post