You knew it was coming, right? I mean, Lara’s only been talking about it forever.
Heated Rivalry is a show that has taken over the world since it came out in November. This series, which was only planned as a Canadian release, took off in a way nobody could have imagined, and has many people (including Lara, obviously) fixated; some might even say, um, obsessed.
In this episode, we dig into some of the topics in the show that we think make it compelling, but also that we believe are important for the world to discuss: the romance genre, good role modelling, acceptance, and the importance of queer joy.
We only got through 3 of the 8 points Lara was going to bring up during this episode (she has a notebook filled with points, everyone), so we want to know: do you want more Heated Rivalry-inspired content?
Also, have you watched the show yet? What did you think? Lara—uh, I mean both of us—want to know.
Transcript
Please note, we do not edit the transcripts carefully for errors.
Rowan: I think that that can be.
Great to expose ourselves to all different types of things and just get used to. Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s bad. It doesn’t mean it’s gross. It doesn’t mean it has to be uncomfortable. I mean, we can adapt and probably should, Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara.
And I’m Rowan,
[00:00:44] Lara: and today we are talking about my favorite topic of 2026, but very much in a way that still fits with our podcast because I needed to figure out how we could talk about Heated Rivalry, the show that has taken over the world without it just being like, I love this.
So can we talk about it? Because I have, really thought about this to figure out how it really fits with the topic. Of our podcast. So that’s what we’re gonna do today. Rowan has watched the show.
[00:01:14] Rowan: I have watched the show through one time, how many times you watched the show through Lara?
[00:01:21] Lara: Well, I stopped keeping count, we’ll say. We will say that it is probably nine or 10 times. What has happened to me is that I like it so much that anytime I put a different show on, I’ll be like, this is disappointing.
[00:01:37] Rowan: This is your new coffee shop. This is like, I’m drinking coffee at home today for the first time in a week, and I’m like, this is terrible now.
Because once you find your thing, right in your case, Heated Rivalry, in my case. , Actual coffee shop equipment, making actual espresso. it just ruins everything else. And I’m sorry for you and also for me, because I’ll be working myself into the grave to have good coffee.
[00:02:02] Lara: Yeah. I mean, the whole thing with this is,
i’ve read all of Rachel Reid, the author’s books. She has eight of them. I’ve read most of them twice. I haven’t read a book like with my eyes. I usually listen to audio books. I haven’t read a book with my eyes in like over a year, and now I’ve read so many and the whole phenomenon is weird to me.
Right. I heard one of the actors, from the show call it like a mass psychosis event and like, I don’t entirely disagree because so many people are so into this show and I am far from the only person who has watched it this many times. I have seen all kinds of content online with all these people who have gotten tattoos.
I was like, tattoos, like wow.
[00:02:51] Rowan: Wow.
[00:02:51] Lara: so I wanna make sure before I start talking too much, that let’s say you don’t know what Heated Rivalry is. Dear listeners, I shall tell you, Heated Rivalry is a television show that was produced in Canada that came out at the end of November. The story is based on Rachel Reid’s books, which are hockey.
Male romance, so M-M, whether it’s gay or queer, it’s men falling in love with men. They’re in the hockey world. It is not about hockey. People are like, oh, do you like hockey now? I was like, no, The books aren’t about hockey. They’re just set in hockey.
[00:03:29] Rowan: Which is very Canadian in itself when you think about it.
[00:03:31] Lara: Yes. So the show came out in November. It was gonna just be a Canadian show. and then HBO picked it up and it just went massively viral. Like I don’t think I have ever seen a show go this viral. And the actors, the two leads were. Working in restaurants a year ago, and they are now literally the most famous actors in the world.
[00:03:58] Rowan: That’s crazy when you think about it, like the trajectory that everybody has been on from the author to the actors, the director. I mean, everybody is just orbiting upwards. And it is even from the perspective of someone who’s only had one time and frankly only the inclination to watch it through one time.
but it is such. A wonderful show. There’s so many elements about it that speak to being a human being, queer, being oppressed, or feeling pressured into hiding who you are. And I don’t think that you need to be queer to fully appreciate the show, although the queer representation is lovely, but.
I know that my co-host here has done extensive note taking on this in a way that I have never seen her take notes before.
[00:04:55] Lara: Yes. So for most episodes I’m like, let’s just talk. And I was like, for this episode, I was like, well, this one’s really serious.
[00:05:04] Rowan: Yeah, it’s really serious,
[00:05:06] Lara: but partially because. I think that there’s a part of me that feels the need to justify my intense, I don’t know if obsession is the right word, right?
Like it’s just like, I’m gonna
[00:05:16] Rowan: say obsession,
[00:05:17] Lara: interest, right? But like to justify it as not just a flight of fancy. so I wanna represent it well because I think there’s a lot to be said about why this has hit so hard, why people are. Pulled in so much, but even more than that for me, why it’s important.
Mm. Because I think it is important in a bunch of different ways. if you haven’t watched the show, my intention is not to talk very much specifically about what happens in the show. So spoilers wise. It’s not huge, but there will be some. So if you’re like, I don’t want any spoilers, like if you’re one of those people who are like, I don’t want to hear anything.
I mean, you probably already know that you shouldn’t listen, but like, here is my reminder that this might be the time to stop. Go watch the show, come back and listen.
[00:06:11] Rowan: Yeah, for sure. I’m gonna try and keep things on a general level as well, on a surface level, but, when it comes to plot points and what have you.
But yeah, I mean, there’s some things where we’re gonna be, , in the reeds a little bit.
[00:06:24] Lara: So the concept of the show, like I said, it. Queer hockey, romance, and the first thing I wanted to talk about was the fact that it’s romance, right? So I have been a reader of the romance genre for.
You know, almost 40 years. That has always been one of the kinds of books I like to read. It’s one of the kinds of books that I feel gets a lot of flack, like, oh, that’s not serious, right? Like, romance kind of gets talked down about. But I think it’s a very good genre and I am happy to see, a show based on that.
And what that means is. That it’s about the romance. So I had one person I was talking to just this week and I was like, have you watched it? And he said, no. My friend told me there’s no plot. And I was like, hold up the plot. What? The plot is, the romance, right? I think some people feel like, well, what else is gonna happen other than the romance?
I was like, no, no, no, no. That is the plot. The plot is the romance. And if you think there needs to be like, I don’t know, some other kind of thing happening, like, you know, we have to solve a mystery at the same time, or I don’t know what, right. No, the plot is the romance and I think that. Just stories about people falling in love, like that’s enough.
That is a good plot point.
[00:07:53] Rowan: I’m just gonna stop there too and maybe suggest that I don’t know this person, and I’m not saying that there’s any ill intent, but I would say that there are a ton of shows and movies that are specifically about love. They’re often about heteronormative, love a man and a woman falling for each other.
They’ve made entire series, multiple seasons out of these, and people watch them like crazy and little things happen to these people along the way, but really the main plot point is that they’re crazy about each other and it’s about their inevitable, hopefully getting together. And that’s what people watch.
It’s interesting to me because. idea that there’s no plot in this case makes me wonder is that because people think that gay love is not as valid, that two men falling for each other is perhaps not as valid, or two women falling for each other or whatever it might be compared to the standard man, woman romance.
[00:08:58] Lara: So in this particular case, I would say no. I was talking to, a guy who is queer, like I don’t think,
[00:09:04] Rowan: okay,
[00:09:04] Lara: that was it. I think it very much was like, what else is happening other than them falling in love, Like, there has to be more than that and he hasn’t watched it. This is from somebody else, but I think two people falling in love is enough for it to be of interest.
[00:09:20] Rowan: Sure. And there are other things going on. There’s hockey rivalry, , there’s, parental stuff happening. There’s, , multiculturalism going on and playing into things, and , there’s so many things that happen around this love story. I mean, yes, I agree with you. The love story in itself is enough, but to make it spread over six episodes.
You need other things to be happening. And yes, there are other things happening.
[00:09:47] Lara: yeah, for sure. And so that was my first thing, like just to remind people romance in and of itself, like it’s a good story. Like sometimes we just want stories like that. And the next thing is something I’ve seen, so the producer, his goal.
Was to create a queer story that was not tragic. And I think that a lot of the kind of movies and shows and things that have happened, you know, there is queer representation, but there’s usually like at some point something terrible is going to happen. In this particular show, there’s still tension.
There’s still something that isn’t working out right, like, I mean, otherwise it really would have no plot and it would be boring. But ultimately in romance as a genre, again, typically, you know that at the end of a romance book, the two leads are going to be together. And they’re, if not happily ever after, they are happy for now.
Like, you know, that that is going to be the end of a romance. So that is not a spoiler. This is a romance. That’s how romances end. And so I think that knowing that the producer wanted to create a show that was like that. you know, was the point.
[00:11:06] Rowan: Yeah. Queer Joy is something that a lot of us in the queer community discuss, but it is not adequately represented in media.
you know, I grew up, and Lara, you grew up in the. the Crying Game era, for example, with trans representation or Silence of the Lambs, where the idea is that I’m just gonna use transness for this particular thing. But the idea is that trans people are tortured. mentally unwell, unstable, possibly harmful, if not to others, certainly to ourselves.
and, that we don’t get to have nice things. We are a tragic story unfolding before your eyes, and that is simply not the case statistically, especially when we are adequately supported and seen for who we are. A lot of that. Sadness, a lot of that, you know, depression, anxiety goes away and for a long time, a lot of stories where you had a gay or bisexual or trans or whatever it might be, character, the representation was either we were a joke and it was something to mock, or we were over the top.
Performative. So if you had a gay man, he had to be extremely gay. And I say extremely gay in that idea of like a flamboyant sort of personality. Right. and you know, very Promiscuous. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. People can do with their bodies what they’d like, but this was always a representation or often the representation.
and, with trans people, again, everything that I explained, bisexual, people were simply confused and maybe just needed the right man to come along, or the right woman to come along, or, were also alcoholics because they were so messed up. I mean, these things were pervasive. And now finally.
We’re in a place and I hope we stay here and in Canada especially. Thank you. ‘cause a lot of these are, grants that are given to Canadian production companies, and any production company that comes into Canada to fund these type of stories. And they’re often very well received in Canada and in other parts of the world.
But we, have this ability now to finally tell. Stories as these well-rounded people who happen to be gay, who happen to be pansexual, who happen to be trans, whatever it might be. And that allows for this joy because there are so many happy, positive stories of our existence. So I’m thrilled that we’re finally getting that kind of reception when we tell them.
[00:13:45] Lara: Yeah, so Jacob Tierney, who is the producer of the show, wanted to do this. I know he shopped it around to different places, including some companies in the US to see who would buy it. In the end, my understanding is that a lot of the, companies who were considering it in the US wanted to change it too much from the original, way that it was try to put off.
The gay stuff, quote unquote. and so instead they made it all in Canada and they did get a lot of grants from the government and, you know, I don’t think it could have been made the way that it was made outside of Canada. So in that way it’s been great and it’s been well received. You know, the Prime Minister did a whole thing , with Jacob Tierney and some of the actors, and was very much,.
Proud of the show and proud of it being Canadian and I think all of that is good. Like this is part of why I think we need to talk about this show and watch this show. I think people need to see this side of just like falling in love with these characters. They’re just lovely characters. People do fall in love with them and it doesn’t matter what their sexuality is.
You’re just like, I like you and I want this to work out for you.
[00:14:55] Rowan: And seeing the success, the runaway success of this show and how Canada helped fund that I really hope resonates in other countries and that there is more of a push in countries where this type of stuff is. Pushed down more suppressed, the US being a good example of that right now, with what’s going on politically, not always, but right now, places like China where the last I checked, and if somebody wants to correct me on this, please do, but I do know that for at least a time, and I believe it is still happening, you’re not allowed to show any.
Gay romance on tv, they can’t kiss, like in, any kind of media, right? And that’s a billion people-ish that , cannot see this kind of stuff. And I mean, there are certainly a lot of lgbtq plus people , in that country, right? and so I think that having.
This by all accounts except for land, mass size, little country like Canada have this explosive hit that is. Very overtly gay, very in your face gay. that hopefully will peak some interest. Like I know in Russia, if I understand correctly, heat rivalries become the number one watch show people have been getting around the firewalls.
So again, this stuff is censored. You can’t. See it there. So people are, getting VPNs. People are watching it that way. They’re pirating it, they’re doing whatever they can to get their hands on it. Right. So at least it was a couple weeks ago, their number one watched show. So the world has an appetite for this, the world wants it, and it’s amazing how one.
Little show ‘cause it really was when it was produced, it was a Canadian show, who knows where it was gonna go. Maybe consumed by a few million Canadians and that’s it. How this little show is having this massive ripple effect around the world. And that’s the power of media.
[00:16:54] Lara: Yeah, I mean, and it really is, so a lot of what I wanted to talk about was representation, right?
So there’s just the fact that it is a story, but there’s a so many different things in this show that I think the more we see it, the more we normalize it, the more it will just happen in the world because we are influenced by what we see. And I love the things that they made a point. To put into it. So my next point was about how it’s just full of good humans, right?
So in the characters, there are a lot of things that happen that, that just make me feel like, yes, we need to see this. So it’s a story about two men, but there are really strong women characters and they’re all really good supportive. Allies, they’re there to help the characters move forward.
They’re there to say, you know what? Love yourself for who you are. They’re there to say, we love you, and no matter what, I’m gonna support you in figuring out how you can be happy in the relationship you want to be in. And again, we all need. Supportive people like that, right? We need people who say, and this is a line from the show, but there is one character who says, you know, he deserves sunshine and so do you.
And so in this conversation around, I know you feel you have to hide this relationship, but just remember. He deserves sunshine, and so do you. Right? It’s not just about you’re, being unfair to this character by trying to get them to hide. It’s like you both deserve this, and I think remembering and seeing and witnessing conversations like that, it’s important.
It really helps us all see what’s possible and how we can be good allies and how we can support people in our lives, and how important it is to people. That there are people who are doing that for them.
[00:18:54] Rowan: Hmm. this is a spoiler alert. I guess we’ve already given spoiler alerts, so I can probably just talk about it.
But there’s one point where a character is dating someone, a woman, and, she has a very frank, very gentle, loving conversation with him about who he really is. I was in tears watching that. It’s harder for me to cry these days because, testosterone makes it a little more challenging. I don’t cry , quite as easily.
I was in tears a few times watching that show, but that scene as somebody who used to hide who I was and really needed the people in my life to accept me, even if it wasn’t what they necessarily wanted for themselves, but what they knew I needed for me. That meant everything to see that piece. Because one of the things about coming out is this fear that you’re really gonna hurt the people around you.
and that’s amplified if it’s someone you’re extremely close to, a parent, a partner, a child. , and some of that is really represented within the show. You, you do have relationships where there are parents and what that looks like. , and, you know, and how parents handle it, or how they don’t depending, and you have the romantic side of it too.
, And also the fame side, the visibility side, right? Like these hockey players. You find out very, very early on in the show, these hockey players are superstars, right? They’re like the two biggest hockey players in the world, pretty much. And the pressure on these young men to be what?
The world wants them to be their managers, want them to be their team, their coach, their parents, other family members. I mean, it’s huge. and then on top of that, you know, you’re gay, right? Like, wow, that would just be a lot. I can’t even imagine what that would feel like.
[00:20:52] Lara: Yeah, there are so many layers. And the next kind of good human I wanted to talk about was specifically the parents in the show. And I think there are a lot of moments that made me cry, but really the ones with the parents are huge ones And, this was a point I really wanted to make. So this show is really talked about how it’s highly sexual and I think, yes it is, but mostly just in the couple of first episodes and it’s sort of.
Establishes the relationship, but it’s not a show about sex. Like that’s not just what it is. And certainly the sex part is not the reason I was so connected to this show, but the sex gets talked about a lot, so I just wanna put that out there. It’s not just interesting because there’s like, oh, look at the sex.
[00:21:34] Rowan: The sex scenes are really well done.
and clearly the people who set up those scenes did them in a way that really brought you into the moment. So that was really cool. I think the other thing, and I, I don’t wanna speak at a turn. I’m not a gay man. you know, , I’m bisexual, but I’m not a gay man.
And so, like, I don’t wanna speak outta turn here, but my understanding from a lot of my friends is that. You know, gay culture, a lot of times, there are a lot of hookups and that sort of thing, right? That you might fall in love with someone after you’ve hooked up with them a few times.
And frankly, that’s not much different than a lot of other types of relationships. But gay culture does have, historically a lot of sex in it. And so I think it makes sense to have that sex and if that makes someone uncomfortable. I think it’s important to step back and ask yourself like, am I fully understanding what’s going on here?
Am I uncomfortable? Perhaps because there might be a little bit of. I’m uncomfortable seeing two dudes get it on. you know, , and why, why do I feel that way? What are the messages I’ve learned? What are some of the stories I might be telling myself and unpacking that I think that could be really, really healthy.
we’ve grown up in a very heteronormative culture, and so even a lot of gay people have internalized homophobia because they were taught. that it was wrong, and subconsciously some of that can still exist. I still have some internalized transphobia that I’m working through, right?
Because I was taught very similar things about trans people. And so I have had to unpack that, which has allowed me to come out and allowed me to figure myself out. But I still catch myself sometimes, and I have to stop myself and go, whoa, what’s that thought? Right? So we all have a little bit of this stuff in us, and I think that can come out when people are like, oh, this show is full of sex.
It is in fact the first couple episodes full of sex.
[00:23:33] Lara: Yep.
[00:23:33] Rowan: But if you would watch this show more comfortably, if it was a man and a woman, or porn has done this to us, two women as opposed to two men, really ask yourself, sit in that uncomfortableness and ask yourself why.
[00:23:47] Lara: Yeah. And we do tend to be uncomfortable when we first experience things.
And so part of this is like, yeah. I might feel a bit weird about this ‘cause I haven’t done it before. I haven’t seen it before. I haven’t watched it before. But that doesn’t mean it’s gonna stay like that. Just remember that.
[00:24:04] Rowan: Exactly. there’s a certain, desensitizing that can happen. Right?
I think that’s similar to if you live in Toronto, there are lots of people who look all different kinds of ways. But if you live in a small town. A lot of times, a lot of people just kind of all look the same, and that’s not across the board, but I mean, you know a lot. Of small towns, predominantly people have a certain skin tone, they have a certain way they dress, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
when I moved to Toronto, I remember noticing that there were so many people who didn’t look like me. And I came from Ottawa, where we have more of that, but there’s way more here in Toronto, way more diversity even than in Ottawa Now, it’s just part of my every day, and I think that that can be.
Great to expose ourselves to all different types of things and just get used to. Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s bad. It doesn’t mean it’s gross. It doesn’t mean it has to be uncomfortable. I mean, we can adapt and probably should,
[00:25:06] Lara: yeah. For sure. Exactly. Okay. I wanna get back to it ‘cause we are not gonna get through all of my points, Rowan.
[00:25:13] Rowan: We might have to do a part two.
[00:25:14] Lara: Might have to. Okay. So the parents are huge in this show and I think that they do a really good job of showing healthy parents. So there is a character named Kip and his dad. Is just the kindest, sweetest, most supportive dad. Right? He’s like, I love you. me too. No, I love you too. Right? He’s like, let’s talk about our feelings.
When his son is upset, he’s like, tell me what’s wrong. He’s giving him big hugs. He says, you know you’re gonna be okay when he’s having like a freak out ‘cause he can’t find something. He’s like, you’ve got this. It’s okay. Let me help you and. Typically, that’s not what we see from dads in media.
[00:25:59] Rowan: Yeah.
Dads are not normally the ones you go to. They’re not soft. if there is a mother presence, in this case with Kip, there isn’t. But if there’s a mother presence, she tends to be the softer one and the dad tends to be the harder one. And if there is a single dad. He tends to be either pretty absent or cold or just not emotionally intelligent.
And this father, I mean, he is the dad. We all need this. Man, I’m getting chills just talking about it. This man is quite possibly the best dad I’ve ever seen on television.
[00:26:35] Lara: Yeah, he’s amazing. And that was one of the first like really tearful moments I had watching the show was just seeing how good and supportive he was.
and I will say that in the book, Kip has both parents, so this was a very intentional decision on the part of the writers of the show was to represent this dad this way.
[00:26:57] Rowan: I love that. I love that you do see, very hard, sort of like toxic masculinity in that show for sure.
But then you also see some very gentle, apparently straight men, right?
Who are just really good dudes and really good dads.
[00:27:15] Lara: So let’s talk about Shane’s dad, where. Again, and this, some of this stuff is so subtle, it’s not discussed, right. It’s not like anywhere in the show they’re like, and Kip’s dad’s the best dad. Right? You’re just watching this relationship and thinking, wow, he’s a good dad.
So Shane’s dad, and this is a little one, but it really struck me, is that he is. The household cook, he is always the one making the food. He’s like, I’m gonna go make the food. he’s the one who’s like handing over the cheese for your pasta. Like he’s the guy who does the food and.
Again, that is, not a huge thing, but it is a huge thing to say. Not all families are this way. And, one of the reasons it struck me so much is because online there’s this whole scene where, one of the characters, I haven’t even said the names of the characters, so we’ve got Shane and Ilia, and.
Ilya is eating all this pasta, right? and in the things I’ve seen online, they’re like, and he’s just eating all the pasta Shane’s mom made for him. And I’m like, no, Shane’s dad made the pasta.
[00:28:20] Rowan: That’s right. I would say Shane’s dad is the gentler of the two parents as well.
Yes. Right. Where Shane’s mom is, more focused on Shane’s career. She’s not a bad mother by any stretch. She’s not a bad mom, but she’s very focused on her son’s career and achievements.
, but I, will say like, wow, she’s very loving. She’s a very loving parent and she really, really cares about her son’s wellbeing, and I think that that was wonderful to see from.
Both of his parents.
[00:28:52] Lara: Yes. So they were the next example of the great humans, I think, that are in this show and how they dealt with, so there’s a coming out moment, right. So they were discovered by Shane’s dad when they didn’t mean to be. And so there was an unexpected coming out moment and.
I’ve watched a lot of reactions online, right? Everybody’s like, oh no, this is where everything falls apart. It’s gonna be terrible. Are they gonna be good? ? How are they gonna deal with this? It’s gonna be bad. Oh, it’s gonna be bad, right? Like that’s the feeling that people get when this happens, because that’s kind of what you hear about a lot.
And what happens is there is this coming out scene and. I think the only negative feelings that they have when they’re talking to their son about his coming out is that he is dating this guy who is from a rival hockey team, and they’re really into hockey, so they’re like this guy?
Like, could you not have picked like a nice guy or somewhere else?
Like why this guy? and that, that was really the only part that they seemed uncomfortable with was that it was like this guy who they, you know, have spent the last 10 years being like, we want him to lose hockey.
[00:30:01] Rowan: Yeah. Again, very, very Canadian moment.
[00:30:06] Lara: Yes.
[00:30:07] Rowan: Right. It’s like what? What’s wrong with you? He’s on your rival team. Yeah. I loved that. I laughed so much when I watched that, that was an excellent scene. it really, it reminds me of when I came out to one of my kids, we were taking a car ride. And I said to them like, you know, listen, I just need you to know, like, I don’t think I am, cisgender.
I think I might be trans. And my kid was like. Oh yeah. Yeah. I could totally see that actually. Yeah. Yeah. anyway, do you wanna listen to this new song? ‘cause it is so, so good. Like, it was just like an acknowledgement, like a Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. It was, it was, I, I think I made it a little more flippant than it actually was, but it was just, it was not a big deal.
It was not nearly as big of a deal as I thought it was going to be. It was just like. Okay. Yeah. And they also did say, I remember, I’m really happy for you. That’s great. And then we just moved on to wanting to listen to this new release from a band they liked. So it’s funny how we can make.
Something a lot bigger than we think it’s going to be. And that is, I mean, we hear in the queer community, there are a lot of really bad coming out stories where we tell family and the family rejects us. They’re not cool with it, or it takes them months or years to come around or, you know, whatever it might be.
but I do think that Shane. Had a lot of fear around his parents knowing, and probably too much because he felt so much pressure from needing to be the son that they wanted him to be, that he thought that they wanted him to be. And this was all tied into it. And I. As a queer person. Wow. Could I relate to that moment so hard?
[00:31:54] Lara: Yeah. Because you know, even when he was asked before he came out, like, would they be bad about it? And he was like, no, I think they would be good, but it didn’t matter. Like the actual coming out and telling them felt so uncomfortable. And so another piece that I think was really just good. Modeling behavior for people was that, you know, the mom seemed to get really upset at one point during this coming out story, and she goes outside and Shane goes out and talks to her and he says, I’m really sorry.
I tried right? I really tried. And she said, oh no, you do not need to apologize. I, I am sorry that I made you feel like you couldn’t tell me. So it wasn’t. I’m so sad you felt like you couldn’t tell me. She very much took the ownership to say, I am sorry that I created a space where you didn’t feel like you could tell me, and I hope that you will forgive me, and that that is so big.
Like I’m getting goosebumps again, and I’ve watched this many times and I’m getting goosebumps again because I think that was huge just to say. I wish that I had done better, so that you felt safer, and that is what people need to hear, right? It’s not like, why didn’t you trust me? Why didn’t you tell me?
Why couldn’t you have come out to me sooner? It was, I’m so sorry that this is what you felt based on how I have been.
[00:33:21] Rowan: Yeah, that’s exactly it. One of my kids before I came out as trans, one of my kids came out and I remember feeling so bad that they had kept it in for so long. And then I realized I had not created that space because I had not specifically said what they needed to hear.
and I don’t beat myself up over it, obviously. It was 2014, and a lot of the world was not talking about being trans yet. And so I and my ex, we had said things like, we don’t care if you’re in love with a man or a woman that kind of thing.
We had said that a lot, but what we had never actually said is. We don’t care if you are a boy or a girl or another gender, you know? So I like to tell that story because when you explicitly spell it out to your kids that you are safe, or even a friend, a coworker, whatever, right? Like if you let them know in advance, you just kind of drop that, somewhere in a conversation.
At some point that can really change things for them because now they know that you have told them they can be who they are. They can love who they want to love. They can be attracted to whoever they’re attracted to. It’s not enough to just be, say, left-leaning or to just say like, you know, I accept everybody because there’s always that part of what if.
You accept everybody but me because of who I am. And so, yeah, I think that was a really, really important moment and I hope a lot of parents thought on that who are still raising their kids.
[00:35:11] Lara: Yeah, because in the show they say, you know, I think we thought you were gay. And he said, really? For how long?
For a while now. So I think the parents had had discussions like, we’re pretty sure he’s probably not straight, but they never talked about it. and like, not that you need to come up to somebody and be like, are you gay? But you can say things that make it feel really safe. To tell somebody. You can talk about how important you think it is that people get to be, you know who they are, that even when it’s scary that they have safe places for people to talk to.
Like when you just talk about that, that creates this safer space for people to come out. And so knowing that you don’t need to just be waiting to be accepting when somebody talks to you, but to create a space that feels safer. I think that’s huge. And I don’t think most people would think to do that, right?
So it’s not that you did something wrong outright, it’s that now if we say, Hey, when you do this kind of thing and you create this safe space, it’s going to help the people around you feel safe. And you might find out a lot of things you wouldn’t have found out otherwise. And just with that little reminder you might find there are people who are gonna suddenly tell you things.
[00:36:24] Rowan: Exactly. Yeah, I think that’s, it’s one of the things I’ve done in my work a lot because I get a lot of people, whether they be parents or friends or you know, even places that people who are working with others where they say, I kind of suspect that this person might be. Whatever, right. Might be queer in some capacity.
How do I let them know that I am a safe person to talk to? And so sometimes it’s appropriate like with your kids, maybe with your younger kids when you’re setting, those things up. And you just say those things explicitly, but there are other ways to do it too.
And I think that, you know, I’ve said to people like. Get some books from the library. Just have them out on your coffee table and just say, oh yeah, I’m reading this right now. This is really interesting, right? Like, it’s about this guy who figured out he was trans and, his transition and it’s, it’s so good.
Or, you know, share a video with your kids or with your friend or whatever, and go, I’m watching this right now and , it’s really teaching me a lot. It’s really cool. And it’s about, Somebody coming out or know, what it’s like to live as or whatever it might be. Because that is also, if you wanna tell them sort of indirectly, that’s another great way of telling them indirectly that you are safe because you are open to learning new things.
[00:37:47] Lara: Yeah. A couple of things that I did over my parenting life cycle, I don’t know, is every once in a while I would say. Are you still good with the same pronouns we’ve always used? And so that was just like, I’m not asking you because I think something, it’s just like every once in a while we wanna make sure, you know.
You don’t have to stick with the pronouns if we wanna have a discussion about it or whatnot. So that is certainly something that I did over the years. The other one I want to mention is a story where, one of my kids’ friends was here for the first time, and on that day, I guess I was wearing like a pride shirt.
It wasn’t pride, but like, I had one and that’s what I wore that day, right? Like whatever. And at a later time. Two of my kids’ friends who were queer mentioned that one, they knew the very first time they met me that I was a safe space because I was wearing that shirt. Somebody else said, oh, I saw a book on your table once about, you know, supporting, the people in your life who are queer and these little things where you’re like, neither of those things were things like when I said, oh, you know, are we still using the right pronouns?
Like that was intentional. The other ones were just me living my life. But it made people feel safe. It doesn’t take a lot, but you know when people are like, why do you have to wear a shirt? Why do you have to do this? Like, this is why, because it tells other people in a very quiet, non-confrontational way That they’re in a place where they’re gonna be okay.
[00:39:16] Rowan: Exactly. It’s one of the reasons I, was able to tell you relatively early who I was. It was for that exact reason. So thank you for that. And I think that given how successful this show is, it will probably help a lot more people come out. And what a beautiful thing if that happens.
[00:39:39] Lara: Yes, that and the amount of content I’ve seen from older folks who are gay saying, oh my gosh, if I had seen something like this as a teenager, it could have changed so much for me.
so representation matters. Being able to see yourself in shows matters. Being able to see people fall in love and have it be good matters.
[00:40:04] Rowan: Yeah. Yeah. I will say one of the things that I’ve seen that’s been a bit more negative has been, some of the gay community. Saying, Hey, you know, there’s a lot of straight women who seem to be fetishizing us now, and that doesn’t feel good. and I mean , you know, that’s what lesbians have been dealing with for a really long time.
With men. Right. and that’s something to be aware of. I think, I wish men were more aware of that when it comes to lesbians. I know so many lesbians and before I transitioned, dealt with this as well, where you would have a man come up and go, oh, I’d really love to see the two of you together.
Like, it’d be so hot. Right? And so now that is happening more to gay men, and it’s worth a conversation. Because it is okay if you found that really hot, if you found the sex in that show hot. That’s, no problem. Right? but do be aware that gay men are real human beings and, you know, I’m not gonna speak again for gay men, but please be aware that they’re actual human beings and not characters, and that their lives are their own.
And, As someone who dealt with that previously, it did not feel good. It felt uncomfortable because it felt like it was missing the scope of what my relationships really meant.
that it was a lot deeper than us just having sex and that us having sex was not a porn.
Us having sex was an act that we were doing together. It was not a performative thing for men’s pleasure.
[00:41:40] Lara: Yeah, absolutely. And there’s a lot more that we could get into around that. ‘cause there are certainly a lot of straight women. I think there’s also just a lot of people who are maybe. Uncovering things about themselves as they try to figure out what it is about this show that’s appealing to them.
[00:42:01] Rowan: Yeah, for sure.
And that’s cool. That’s cool in its own way. Like, I think it’s great when you can watch something and reflect and go, how does this make me feel? Why? is there something else I need to figure out? you know but also don’t put pressure on yourself to figure it out.
It’s okay sometimes that takes a little while. Sometimes it turns out not to really be anything at all, and it’s just something to acknowledge. you know, but it is. I think that’s all right.
[00:42:25] Lara: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So, we have covered three of my eight points. so I think that at this point it’s probably time to wrap up this episode.
Regardless, there’s all kinds of stuff around, other representation like. Autism and bisexuality. There’s stuff about consent, there’s stuff about hockey, there’s all kinds of extra stuff we could talk about. My question, I guess for the audience is, have you enjoyed this? Would you like to hear more about Heated Rivalry?
and it’s really more what I think we’re doing is just using it as a springboard to have these other conversations, right? We’re not like. Digging into these characters specifically and all the plot points. And you know, I’ve seen all kinds of other content out there where they’re like, let’s look at the cinematography like this.
This is not our angle, but I do think that there are so many topics that are worth talking about that came up in this show that I think are what make it important. This is not gonna be a three hour episode and we’re gonna go through it all, but if, people are interested and if you’re interested, Rowan, we can talk more about this at another time.
[00:43:30] Rowan: Yeah, definitely. I would love to. I mean, one of the things that I caught myself doing is forgetting that one of the characters is bisexual.
Right? And there you go. Even as somebody who is bi. That in itself is by erasure. Right. Where I was just, saying like gay men, gay men. Gay men. Well one of them isn’t gay.
[00:43:51] Lara: That’s right.
[00:43:51] Rowan: Right. One for sure is not gay , and so yeah, this is what media does it Absolutely. Just, Makes us think if it is done well, it makes us think and a multi-layered show like that where there is so much to unpack and so many angles,
was it done well? Was it not? What does the bisexual community feel, you know, outside of myself who apparently forgot one of the characters was bi for, the last few minutes. what does the hockey community think?
, It is fascinating to me to see all of these different worlds come together to create this show, and I’m so proud. That it was made here. I’m so, so proud that it was made here. I had a film crew come into, understory yesterday, and you know, I didn’t ask what they were filming, just serve them some coffee and what have you, but it was like, , it’s exciting because I’m like, I just think of the fact that.
We are making all these gems here in Canada. It makes me extra proud to live here. So, thank you. I highly doubt the creators of Heated Rivalry will be listening to our podcast, but you never know if you happen to come across it. Thank you for creating this. Thank you for, making us all think and thank you, honestly, I think for making a lot of us a little better than we were before going into that show.
[00:45:17] Lara: Yeah. And Rachel Reid, the author, has written, like I said, eight books and there’s so many good things that go throughout all of her books. Like I would love to talk to her like she is amazing. So there’s just so much good. I hope that if you haven’t watched the show, you might consider it.
If you have watched the show, do you have anything to add? Knowing that we only hit three of my eight points, so I didn’t miss some things that you might have wanted to talk about. We didn’t get there.
[00:45:45] Rowan: Exactly, exactly. And. Support Canadian. You know, I’m sure Rachel’s doing quite well in sales right now, but
go buy her books. Get them from the library if you can’t buy them. Support her support making this wonderful, romantic, joyful queer media.
[00:46:05] Lara: Yeah. There was a time, I don’t know what it is, right now, but I’m trying to look it up. but there was a time very recently where five of the top 10 most popular books that were selling in Canada were hers.
Five of the 10. That’s like on the best sellers list. Five of the books were hers, like, wow.
[00:46:26] Rowan: As an author, I can’t even imagine what that feels like. I’ve only gotten like one book on the list at a time. Right? Like that has to feel so. Good. I mean, she obviously put her heart and soul into creating these, and I’m thrilled for her and I’m thrilled for her that it’s become a phenomenon and, I wish all the best for her and for everyone who helped create this show because when I say creators, I mean everybody.
I mean , everyone from the author to the agent who sold the book to the producer, the director, everybody, everyone on the crew, everybody went into making this beautiful, beautiful story. , It’s so nice.
[00:47:09] Lara: Yeah. All right. Well thank you for indulging me, Rowan, in talking about Heated Rivalry and everybody, please do go to our substack unboxing it dot substack.com.
Let us know if you wanna hear more of this and tell all your friends if you can, ‘cause we want to get this podcast in front of as many people as possible.
[00:47:31] Rowan: Have a great day.
